Tennessee Rifle Trigger Guard Question

[PathfinderNC]

My first Tennessee Rifle and the trigger guard is unlike others I have used.
If I am correct, the rear of the guard has a small tab that will receive a pin. The large chunks are casting sprues?
I am guessing that the two long extensions on the forward flat are also casting sprues and not for pins, and it gets a mounting screw?
Thanks for any clarification.

 

[oldwood]

Southern rifles frequently use screws front and back for securing a trigger guard. My favorite Tenn. gun is an Alfert Gross rifle. I can make Alfert's trigger guard out of soft steel strapping using an arc welder on low amperage. Since the front of the trigger pieces are welded together , a screw can be used , or a front pinning lug can be soldered on for a pin. The rear trigger guard extension should have a screw , but can be incorrectly pinned as well. ..............oldwood

 

[PathfinderNC]

Thanks oldwood. It looks like that small tab in the back was for a pin. Maybe not then?

 

[hawkeye2]

That tab may have been placed there to allow you an alternative method of mounting.

 

[Notchy Bob]

A consideration is that the original iron triggerguards on these rifles were forged, not cast. These guards are investment cast now because that is the easiest way to replicate them.

I have personally handled maybe eight or so original Tennessee rifles, and I've seen a few more in racks or glass cases, and have never seen one with the triggerguard pinned to the stock. The ones I have seen were all surface mounted and screwed on.

To me, the originals generally appear to have been made of two or three pieces of strap iron, forge-welded together and artfully shaped. Just from the way they appear to be made, tabs for pins would have to be made separately and attached somehow, and I don't think they saw a need to do that.

Investment casting allows today's fabricators to do all sorts of things that would not have been seen with originals. The tabs for pins are an example. I have also seen modern investment castings of brass, made in the form of hand-forged iron guards like this one, which I think is totally bizarre. Sand cast brass parts were certainly available back in the day, but they were of a very different form.

The original Tennessee rifles often reveal a great deal of skill on the part of their builders, although the rifles themselves tended to be plain and simple. Out of respect to the tradition, I think it is best to adhere as closely as we can to the form of the originals. In my opinion, you'll get the most authentic representation of a Tennessee rifle if the sprues or casting gates are cut off the trigger guard and it is surface mounted with screws.

You do great work, Bob, with much attention to detail. I'll look forward to seeing more of this rifle as the project continues.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[ghostdncr]

I don't recall ever seeing an original that was pinned, but that's not to say it wasn't done. I have seen a lot of modern ones with the pinned trigger guards. I've seen several with a screw on one end and a pin on the other! Wonder what's up with that? I'd use iron screws on mine because that's what I see in my head for one of these guns, but certainly wouldn't look down on a someone that preferred pins.

 

[PathfinderNC]

A consideration is that the original iron triggerguards on these rifles were forged, not cast. These guards are investment cast now because that is the easiest way to replicate them.

I have personally handled maybe eight or so original Tennessee rifles, and I've seen a few more in racks or glass cases, and have never seen one with the triggerguard pinned to the stock. The ones I have seen were all surface mounted and screwed on.

To me, the originals generally appear to have been made of two or three pieces of strap iron, forge-welded together and artfully shaped. Just from the way they appear to be made, tabs for pins would have to be made separately and attached somehow, and I don't think they saw a need to do that.

Investment casting allows today's fabricators to do all sorts of things that would not have been seen with originals. The tabs for pins are an example. I have also seen modern investment castings of brass, made in the form of hand-forged iron guards like this one, which I think is totally bizarre. Sand cast brass parts were certainly available back in the day, but they were of a very different form.

The original Tennessee rifles often reveal a great deal of skill on the part of their builders, although the rifles themselves tended to be plain and simple. Out of respect to the tradition, I think it is best to adhere as closely as we can to the form of the originals. In my opinion, you'll get the most authentic representation of a Tennessee rifle if the sprues or casting gates are cut off the trigger guard and it is surface mounted with screws.

You do great work, Bob, with much attention to detail. I'll look forward to seeing more of this rifle as the project continues.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

That is a very well articulated explanation. It really is helping me get a handle on how to approach this trigger guard. You have helped me very much and I thank you Notchy Bob!

 

[PathfinderNC]

I don't recall ever seeing an original that was pinned, but that's not to say it wasn't done. I have seen a lot of modern ones with the pinned trigger guards. I've seen several with a screw on one end and a pin on the other! Wonder what's up with that? I'd use iron screws on mine because that's what I see in my head for one of these guns, but certainly wouldn't look down on a someone that preferred pins.

I think you made a good point about methods. Follow the tradition of the originals or use a method that, although might not have been done in the past and use what seems best. A blending of old and new…
I appreciate your response and perspective very much!

 

[PathfinderNC]

That tab may have been placed there to allow you an alternative method of mounting.

It seems you are right!

 

[Eric Krewson]

The trigger guard on the Bogle rifle is pinned front and back.

The original Bogle rifle with pin holes visible, I hope Wayne Elliot doesn't mind me using his picture, he did a spectacular job of documenting this rifle.

My Bogle rifle, made by the current Joe Bogle with a pinned trigger guard, Joe followed the original pretty closely. Joe has made 7 or 8 of these rifles, he made some in percussion because the people he made them for weren't experienced with flint. He gave this rifle to me as a gift.

 

[PathfinderNC]

That’s more good information, thank you!

 

[Eric Krewson]

I put a Bogle like trigger guard on my TN rifle so I pinned it front and back, mainly because I prefer pins to screws. My TN rifle is the same Pecatonica precarve that you are using. I never copy any rifle and add my own flair to everything, mainly because I am a rookie and not good at doing direct copies.

 

[PathfinderNC]

One thing occurred to me is that a wood screw forward of the trigger guard bow will go right into the ramrod hole. That is not something I want to have happen. There is space before the trigger plate where the tab can be inlet into the stock (below the ramrod hole) to secure it. A screw will not work there however because of the bowed shape.

 

[Notchy Bob]

The trigger guard on the Bogle rifle is pinned front and back.

The original Bogle rifle with pin holes visible, I hope Wayne Elliot doesn't mind me using his picture, he did a spectacular job of documenting this rifle.
View attachment 94585

My Bogle rifle, made by the current Joe Bogle with a pinned trigger guard, Joe followed the original pretty closely. Joe has made 7 or 8 of these rifles, he made some in percussion because the people he made them for weren't experienced with flint. He gave this rifle to me as a gift.


View attachment 94586

That's cool, Eric! I've never personally examined one like that, but there it is. Never say never!

Notchy Bob

 

[rmann]

Yes, the rear tab receives a pin. The rest are sprues that are removed, except for the one 2nd to the right, just forward of the trigger. That extension is in an ideal place, but should be reduced in width, length, and height, similar to the rear tab. My reasoning is this: Where is there adequate wood depth to securely secure a screw to, on the front TG extension? Do you really trust a screw anchored to the thin web of wood below the ramrod channel? My ramrod channel reaches all the way to that forward tab, and that is ideal. My TG is pinned just like the original Bogle rifle, and the forward pin is hidden on the lock side, by the lock itself And function wise, a snug pin is superior to a screw in every way. That is my opinion, as one who values function over form, in general. As a carpenter, a pinned mortise and tenon beats a screw any day.... I would send a picture if I had the ability, but the Bogle original that Eric sent, says it all. That was my inspiration to my TN build, and the TG is snug and secure.

 

[ppb]

Don't know if it's correct or not, but there's this...

 

[PathfinderNC]

Yes, the rear tab receives a pin. The rest are sprues that are removed, except for the one 2nd to the right, just forward of the trigger. That extension is in an ideal place, but should be reduced in width, length, and height, similar to the rear tab. My reasoning is this: Where is there adequate wood depth to securely secure a screw to, on the front TG extension? Do you really trust a screw anchored to the thin web of wood below the ramrod channel? My ramrod channel reaches all the way to that forward tab, and that is ideal. My TG is pinned just like the original Bogle rifle, and the forward pin is hidden on the lock side, by the lock itself And function wise, a snug pin is superior to a screw in every way. That is my opinion, as one who values function over form, in general. As a carpenter, a pinned mortise and tenon beats a screw any day.... I would send a picture if I had the ability, but the Bogle original that Eric sent, says it all. That was my inspiration to my TN build, and the TG is snug and secure.

Those were my thoughts as well. Not enough wood in front of the trigger guard for a screw to be secure with that ramrod hole in there. There is an area about 1" froward of the trigger plate where a pinned lug could work.Dressing that lug to a workable size would be my inclination. The rear could get a screw, or a pinned lug.

 

[Pete G]

Screws are correct for MOST iron mounted rifles. There are a very few exceptions, of course. Study before you chose. The devil is in the details.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Screws are correct for MOST iron mounted rifles. There are a very few exceptions, of course. Study before you chose. The devil is in the details.

And so there are no absolutes

 

[Pete G]

And so there are no absolutes

Never say never