Thanksgiving

[coloradoclyde]

IF he offers a 16th source will you accept that as FACT??
(LOTS of false/mistakes of fact writings have been done in every era.)

yours, satx

I'll even make it easy for you....I'll settle for the first/oldest written use of the word "thanksgiving"

 

[Dr5x]

I DIDM'T MEAN TO DISCUSS PERESECUTION. I MEANT TO DISCUSS PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR.

READ NATHANIAL HAWTHORN'S THE SCARLET LETTER AND GET A BETTER IDEA OF THE FUN AND GENERAL JOY THE DESCIPLES OF COTTON MATHER ENJOYED.



THE REASON THE INDIANS WERE SO NICE TO THE PILGRIMS WAS THAT A SLIGHTLY EARLIER INVASION HAD INFECTED THE TRIBES WITH SMALLPOXX OR MEASLES AND WIPED OUT THE BULK OF THEIR POPULATION AND THEY WERE UNDERSTANDABLY A BADLY WHIPPED BUNCH WHEN THE PILGRIMS SHOWD UP..



DUTCH

 

[coloradoclyde]

How is being forced to wear a scarlet letter not a form a persecution? :shocked2:

 

[Nativearizonan]

My reference to turkeys which you quoted above, was for the Rio Grande Thanksgiving, suggested by SATX. I have period reference (Luxan) to domestic turkeys along the Rio Grande from 1581-82. They were frequently listed as being on the menu at that location and at that time; which has nothing to do with pilgrims at Plymouth, of course.

Fake history complete with 21st century articles and artists....
Do you have a 16th century source?

What do you mean by that? I gave you the author, you can't figure out the source? Here:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/expe...z-de-luxan-a-member-of-the-party/oclc/5389937

 

[Nativearizonan]

Here is the thread I started on the book some time ago:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/299281/post/1552678/hl//fromsearch/1/

 

[Nativearizonan]

Turkeys were domesticated in Mexico and were kept by southwestern people across the area between the Colorado and rio grande rivers. They were known in late Mississippian civilization also. I’m pretty sure turkey would be on any southwestern feast menu.

I'm not disputing turkeys....

You certainly were disputing turkeys.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I'm not interested in the turkeys.
I'm interested in the first thanksgiving....What page of Diego Pérez de Luxán's journal is it on?

 

[Nativearizonan]

My original post when I claimed there could have been turkeys:

11-25-17 03:26 AM - Post#1653339
In response to satx78247

satx78247 Said:
I'm sure that you are correct that harvest festivals have been held for many centuries.

Nonetheless, the first known Thanksgiving in what now the USA was held in what is now El Paso County, TX & included priests, Spanish soldiers and numerous local NAs.
(The celebration was 3 days long & grew in size as more people learned of it & brought more food/beverages.)

yours, satx



That meal may well have included turkey, as I have several references to domestic turkeys being raised by the pueblo natives along the Rio Grande. They reportedly had barns with 100 turkeys to the barn and the turkeys were herded out to pasture on the mountains. This was before sheep or cattle were introduced.

From that post you chose to question the bolded part:

11-25-17 04:15 AM - Post#1653352

In response to Native Arizonan

Quote:
That meal may well have included turkey,

Can anyone show me a 1621 reference listing "turkeys" on the menu?.....I won't hold my breath....

I would also like a 16th century definition of fowl..

Early journals list many swans on the menu...
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
Napoleon Bonaparte

You asked me for turkeys, not thanksgiving.

My error in wasting any time looking up anything for you. I'll try not to do that in the future.

 

[coloradoclyde]

You asked me for turkeys, not thanksgiving.

No I didn't ....I asked for a 1621 reference

Can anyone show me a 1621 reference listing "turkeys" on the menu?.....

Also, saying,

That meal may well have included turkey,

Is not a reference....it is a guess at best.

Regardless of what you think I was asking you, turkeys are a moot point.
The question I have been trying to ask that everyone is dodging is the claim of the first thanksgiving in Rio Grande from 1581-82.
Wasn't Diego Pérez de Luxán still in the canary islands until 1582?

 

[satx78247]

SORRY, but I don't have time to go over to The Institute of Texas Cultures & dig out the reference wherein the Catholic priest recounted the FIRST Thanksgiving, in what is now the USA.
(These days, I'm found daily either doing Texas Master Naturalist hours and/or acting as a visitor-services docent at our Alamo Shrine. = Frankly, I cannot remember ever being this busy when I was "working full-time" for pay.)

As best as I can remember, the priest did NOT mention turkey as one of the dishes that were served over the 3 days of celebration.
He did mention what sounds like traditional pit-cooked BBQ beef (bison?), roasted venison, fowl & pork.
His account also mentioned a large amount of alcoholic beverages were consumed but I don't remember what kind.
(The land that was later Texas, at that time, had huge numbers of deer, "wild ox" AKA American bison, wild turkeys, javelinas , ducks, geese, cranes, rabbits/hares, fish, reptiles, etc.)

I've wondered how early that domestic swine & cattle were raised for the table by the first European settlers of TX/NM. - Do any of our members KNOW that answer?

yours,satx

 

[Billnpatti]

All of this arguing about turkeys on Thanksgiving and when and where the first Thanksgiving took place seems to me personally like a lot of ado about nothing. The more important thing is do we, at Thanksgiving, truly give thanks to our Creator for His many blessings or do we just gorge on turkey, ham and the "fixin's" and watch a ball game with no thought given to what Thanksgiving is really all about?

 

[satx78247]

SPOT ON.

Here's hoping that you & your lady had a BLESSED Thanksgiving.

yours, "D" & satx

 

[coloradoclyde]

Thanks, your answer will suffice... :v

 

[Brokennock]

To no on in particular regarding the "when" of thanksgiving, I seem to recall that throughout the colonial period, days of "thanksgiving" were frequently proclaimed for various reasons at various times. Usually proclaimed by governors, often speaking for the church.



Now, back to your pissing contest, sorry to interupt.

 

[George]

Whole lot of turkeys here.

According to the University of Illinois extension department;

"Wild turkeys were probably first domesticated by native Mexicans. Spaniards brought tame Mexican turkeys to Europe in 1519, and they reached England by 1524. The Pilgrims actually brought several turkeys to America on the voyage in 1620."

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

So the turkey that may have been on the menu might have been pen raised English turkey .... :hmm: :haha:

 

[George]

So the turkey that may have been on the menu might have been pen raised English turkey .... :hmm: :haha:

Or not....

"And while it's probably true the pilgrims hunted turkeys, a new study published today in Journal of Archaeological Science: Reports, reveals that Native Americans on the Eastern coast had been raising turkeys for hundreds of years before that first Thanksgiving””something not even considered by scientists until now. It's possible the Wampanoag brought their own domesticated turkeys to the feast."

Spence

 

[crockett]

I found this:

William Bradford noted that, "besides waterfowl, there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many."[5] Many of the foods that were included in the first feast (except, notably, the seafood) have since gone on to become staples of the modern Thanksgiving
Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation 1620”“1647, p. 100.

Bradford was Governor of the Colony.

I assumed these were wild eastern Turkeys hunted in Massachusetts, not domesticated birds from the mayflower. But I have no idea.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Native Americans just don't get enough credit for their farming.

 

[Wes/Tex]

All of this arguing about turkeys on Thanksgiving and when and where the first Thanksgiving took place seems to me personally like a lot of ado about nothing. The more important thing is do we, at Thanksgiving, truly give thanks to our Creator for His many blessings or do we just gorge on turkey, ham and the "fixin's" and watch a ball game with no thought given to what Thanksgiving is really all about?

Exactly the reason I save this silly pic...it reminds me of what we've lost.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d2/61/0d...hanksgiving-traditions-thanksgiving-funny.jpg