The Double Double

[DuncNZ]

I wonder if the ring on the wedge was added later , it is an unusual feature and is in an inconvenient position for the left hand to get around . Cornstalk is the wedge pinned in place ?

 

[DuncNZ]

Which is why the rest of the world has set its own proof standards with the CIP regulations.

As such, the USA has no governmental or federal proof houses, relying instead on the gunmaker to test his own product. Incidentally, in the UK, there are just two proof houses, one in each of the principal centres of the gun-trade -Birmingham and London, both in England.

Every US-made firearm imported into any of the fourteen CIP-signaturee nations for sale there must be subjected to the gun proof houses of that nation. Only having been proofed can it then be sold on the commercial market with the CIP area of trade. Note that the US-centric SAAMI is NOT regulatory, but advisory only, and has no basis in law. The CIP regulations ARE part of the law of that nation. Selling a modern-made gun in any of those fourteen countries without gun-proof is a criminal offence. However, anybody buying or selling an antique firearm to a collector can do so with an unproofed firearm with the proviso that the onus of proof lies with the buyer, not the vendor, should the buyer choose to shoot it.

In the case of a US-made revolver, each chamber of the cylinder is proofed individually, in exactly the same way as a similar firearm made within the CIP constraints.

Common sense should prevail, and anybody wishing to shoot, say, an 1861 Springfield rifled musket imported from the USA, would be strongly advised to have it proofed before shooting it. Shooting an unproofed gun that subsequently fails, injuring a person other than the shooter, will make the owner liable for any injuries that may ensue.

British proof laws require any firearm offered for sale must be in proof , For shotguns this is a dimensional proof , that is why shotguns have a bore size and load stamped on them , if the bore is worn more than a certain size it has to be re proved before sale and stamped accordingly . I have a rifle made by Alf Parker , of Parker Hale fame , The rifle was made and proofed in 1920 , then was sold in 1927 after the proof marks law had changed in 1925 so it was re proved again . New Zealand has no proof laws and depends on the proofing done in either the factory proofs as in the USA or the country origin proofs as in Italian or British proofs . We have Accident compensation laws where the State picks up the bill for all accidental injuries , no liability involved

 

[cornstalk]

I wonder if the ring on the wedge was added later , it is an unusual feature and is in an inconvenient position for the left hand to get around . Cornstalk is the wedge pinned in place ?

The ring does give one something to grab to pull the wedge without any tools. And it looks OEM to the gun. I'm betting originally there probably was some tool in the case to assist, something with a hook end maybe.

 

[Brokennock]

It's a shotgun.

Yeah? So?
It is a double barrel gun. I've seen double barrel shotguns, rifles, and combo guns discussed on their forums.

 

[pamtnman]

It's a shotgun.

Are you absolutely sure? Many British guns were designed to shoot shot and ball. I’d actually be surprised if it doesn’t shoot ball accurately to 60-70 yards. Even if it is “only” a shotgun, DGJ will probably still be interested.

 

[TFoley]

Are you absolutely sure? Many British guns were designed to shoot shot and ball. I’d actually be surprised if it doesn’t shoot ball accurately to 60-70 yards. Even if it is “only” a shotgun, DGJ will probably still be interested.

In post #1, the OP wrote - ' A double 20 smoothbore with double ignition'. In other words, here in UK, shotgun, specifically a double-barrel, side-by-side shotgun. Again, here in UK, ANY smoothbore firearm of this style is called a shotgun - if this were not the case, then you would not be able to own it on a Section 2 [Smoothbore] shotgun certificate.

IF it has a parallel - ie., non-choked barrel - then of course you WOULD be able to shoot a ball from it, as any owner of a musket is able to do. All smoothbore arms of the matchlock, arquebus, Brown Bess long-arms, much in use by the numerous re-enactment organisations here in UK, are classed as shotguns in law and may be used to shoot ball as well as blank, if, of course, the owner is a gun club member.

You'll note that I did not say that it was 'only' a shotgun. It would be a real privilege to own such a piece of firearms history of a kind that few of us have ever seen before.

BTW, Mr OP - Birmingham and London are two different places, separated by around 150 miles. No great distance at all in Alaska, but a meaningful distance here in UK.

 

[TFoley]

Yeah? So? It is a double barrel gun. I've seen double barrel shotguns, rifles, and combo guns discussed on their forums.

My response was to Mr Pamtnman's comment'

pamtnman said:
The Double Gun Journal might be interested in an article featuring this wonderfully strange rifle

 

[Brokennock]

My response was to Mr Pamtnman's comment'

pamtnman said:
The Double Gun Journal might be interested in an article featuring this wonderfully strange rifle

Yes. Sorry, the context of your correction was unclear at the time. I thought you were implying it didn't belong on DGJ because it is a shotgun.
I saw the word "rifle" and just ignored it.
I see it often, here and other places that muzzleloaders are discussed. For some reason some people just insist on calling any shoulder fired arm, a rifle.

 

[pamtnman]

Shot and ball tests with this gun for its article

 

[user 13896]

Someone comes up with a bright idea and makes, or has made, this combo flint/percussion double. No one else picks up on it. Either it has ignition issues (as some have mentioned above) or is simply too expensive to build. If it worked the way the bright idea imagined there would be a lot of them around. Interesting idea, but a dead end.

 

[TFoley]

Yes. Sorry, the context of your correction was unclear at the time. I thought you were implying it didn't belong on DGJ because it is a shotgun. I saw the word "rifle" and just ignored it. I see it often, here and other places that muzzleloaders are discussed. For some reason some people just insist on calling any shoulder fired arm, a rifle.

We know better than that here, right?

 

[cornstalk]

The barrels are not choked.

 

[TFoley]

The barrels are not choked.

In that case, shoot all the ball you want.

 

[Britsmoothy]

In post #1, the OP wrote - ' A double 20 smoothbore with double ignition'. In other words, here in UK, shotgun, specifically a double-barrel, side-by-side shotgun. Again, here in UK, ANY smoothbore firearm of this style is called a shotgun - if this were not the case, then you would not be able to own it on a Section 2 [Smoothbore] shotgun certificate.

IF it has a parallel - ie., non-choked barrel - then of course you WOULD be able to shoot a ball from it, as any owner of a musket is able to do. All smoothbore arms of the matchlock, arquebus, Brown Bess long-arms, much in use by the numerous re-enactment organisations here in UK, are classed as shotguns in law and may be used to shoot ball as well as blank, if, of course, the owner is a gun club member.

You'll note that I did not say that it was 'only' a shotgun. It would be a real privilege to own such a piece of firearms history of a kind that few of us have ever seen before.

BTW, Mr OP - Birmingham and London are two different places, separated by around 150 miles. No great distance at all in Alaska, but a meaningful distance here in UK.

I understand a smoothbored gun can NOT shoot ball if said gun is held via a shotgun licence on a range or anywhere else.
It has to become held on a firearms certificate.
Utter nonsense but hey.....

 

[DuncNZ]

Someone comes up with a bright idea and makes, or has made, this combo flint/percussion double. No one else picks up on it. Either it has ignition issues (as some have mentioned above) or is simply too expensive to build. If it worked the way the bright idea imagined there would be a lot of them around. Interesting idea, but a dead end.

There was more than one maker of this sort of gun , The reason for this gun is it was part of the evolution from flint to percussion , when shooters didn't completely trust the cap and believed the Flintlock shot harder . There were many different percussion locks before the copper cap was completely developed , eg: Pill , Tube , scent bottle .tape locks .Forsythe who developed the first percussion lock firearms (Not Cap) also made locks which were both pill and flintlock . I think a lot of well made guns like this were probably convert to cap use when the cap became fully developed , as many pinfire shotguns were converted to center fire when pinfires became obsolete . I have seen caplock muzzle loaders converted to center fire by skilled British gunsmiths . I guess it was a "waste not want not" philosophy

 

[DuncNZ]

I understand a smoothbored gun can NOT shoot ball if said gun is held via a shotgun licence on a range or anywhere else.
It has to become held on a firearms certificate.
Utter nonsense but hey.....

Some of us live and shoot under some ridiculous and restrictive firearms laws , one either gets on with it or gives up .

 

[Feltwad]

There was more than one maker of this sort of gun , The reason for this gun is it was part of the evolution from flint to percussion , when shooters didn't completely trust the cap and believed the Flintlock shot harder . There were many different percussion locks before the copper cap was completely developed , eg: Pill , Tube , scent bottle .tape locks .Forsythe who developed the first percussion lock firearms (Not Cap) also made locks which were both pill and flintlock . I think a lot of well made guns like this were probably convert to cap use when the cap became fully developed , as many pinfire shotguns were converted to center fire when pinfires became obsolete . I have seen caplock muzzle loaders converted to center fire by skilled British gunsmiths . I guess it was a "waste not want not" philosophy

Yes I agree with most you have said but the gun in question to me may only be a one off . If we take the percussion period and the early breech loading period English gun making was supreme and for the gunmaker to show off his skill we had exhibition halls such has Crystal Palace and others with gun makers exhibition their guns with other trades too the world .
Feltwad

 

[DuncNZ]

I have no doubt that the gun is a one off , His Lordship would not like turning up at a shoot only to see another gun the same . Same with his wife and her hat

 

[Feltwad]

I have no doubt that the gun is a one off , His Lordship would not like turning up at a shoot only to see another gun the same . Same with his wife and her hat

Come on I think you are way off the mark .Has for his Lordship not wanting another gun the same , if your Lordship wanted a top quality gun he would go more for the Purdy, Lancaster, W . Richards Holland , Manton and many others other than a Birmingham Gun. No this gun was not made for a certain person it was for the gun maker to show his skilled craft and exhibit at a top exhibition and could have been sold to any man of wealth it is defiantly a exhibition piece and has seen very little use
Feltwad

 

[DuncNZ]

Maybe you are correct , Caplock shotguns started being used in England about 1835 , which is the time period for this gun , it was a new fangled idea which needed some time to catch on. Single Muzzle loading guns were usually carried and loaded by the shooter . By the 1850's the cartridge guns were making an appearance and it wasn't until the 1880s that the big shoots really got going and pairs arrived on the scene . I wonder if the reason it has had little use is that it was quickly out dated .
By the way I have owned rook rifles in various calibers by all the makers you mention and a few more .