The eight shot group.

[Grandpa Ron]

Well you certainly made me a believer. I have worked with bell curve statistics but never thought about applying then to shooting.

I went out to the range with the following conditions.
”¢ A 42” barreled, 28 ga. (.540” bore) flint lock Trade gun (Type G) with a .523” ball and .024” thick lubed patch over a ½” thick 28ga. lubed wad. The lube is a mixture of Bore Butter, Crisco and bees wax heated and allowed to soak in.
”¢ I had just installed a new vent liner with a .062’ hole; replacing the previous liner that had eroded to .095” and was getting comments on the shooting line.
Ӣ Weather was sunny with no wind. Shooter in sun, target on deep shadows.
Ӣ 50 yards from a shooting bench with a low mounted rear sight super glued into position.
”¢ I fired a five shot group “A” swabbed the bore with a damp patch fired five shot group “B”. Then swabbed the bore again and fire Group “C” with an increased charge.

The can be seen in the attached photo. (Let’s see how well it posts)
”¢ Red dots “A” are 60 grain 3F. 5 shots
”¢ Red dots “B” are 60 grain 3F. 5 shots after swabbing bore with damp patch.
”¢ Black dots “C” are 70 grains 3f. 5 shots. A previous load with good performance.
Of the 15 shots.
Ӣ 2 are in the 3 inch ring.
Ӣ 9 are in the 6 inch ring.
Ӣ 4 are out of the 6 inch ring.

The shots were fired at the same aiming point but grouped 2” to the left with the glued on rear sight. They were then transferred to a piece of paper and the 1 inch circles add to what appears to be the center of the group.

From this and other shooting tests I have confirmed what prompted my post. That is even though three of the shots from group “A” and group “C” would fall within a 2” group and even three of the group “B” shots could be squeaked into a “3” circle, over a longer course of fire, a 6” bell curve encompassing loading variables, fatigue and aging eyes would be more indicative of performance.

Now comes off hand with no rear sight; that should be humbling. :hmm:

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Short answer, any gun can or will shoot off the group on the first round fired - no matter what kind of modern gun or muzzle loader.

However, not ALL guns do that ... that is a very important distinction.

But one must shoot enough to fully know the characterization, if not 'personality' (likes/dislikes, i.e., fouled bore, etc.) of the arm in question, plus your use - hunting (cold bore) vs target (precision capability).

 

[smoothshooter]

Are you sure you are holding or resting the forestock in the same place and with the same tension every shot?
It's easy to be inconsistent on this with muzzleloaders since the shooter has to get completely out of the shooting position to reload before settling in again.
That might explain the vertical dispersion on your target.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Artficer,

I believe the information you presented should be copied and read by anyone that wants to improve his or her shooting.

I was taught and have used many of those techniques over the years. I started shooting muzzle loaders in in the late 1960’s and was a pretty fair shooter in the mid 1970’s and early 1980’s. Over time my interest moved more towards reenactment shooting. Basically gongs or other breakable hit or miss targets. It mattered little if you hit the edge or dead center, a hit was a hit.

In recent years I became enamored with trade guns. Shooting both the traditional powder, tow, bare ball or shot loads and the now common PRB loads. I consider the ultimate test to be the International Smoothbore Match. 13 shots offhand, no rear sight, no set trigger, 30 minute time limit, count your 10 best shots.

Hence the reason I would like someone to post their best 8 to 10 shot group and provide the particulars.

 

[Hisownself]

Are you shooting round balls with he sprue still present, or rounded off?

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I have tried sprew up and sprew down with no conclusive results. I have not tried removing the sprew. However, I use a pretty tight patch and ball and the hand smack on the short starter does round off the sprew somewhat, as does the seating with the ramrod.

I also have some balls that are only .005” under bore size with the sprew removed and the surfaces dimpled between two course rasps. These are supposed to give good accuracy when loaded directly on the powder. I am a bit skeptical about the results.

More than once I have tried combination of ball, patch and wads that produced some really nice groups, only to find they were not repeatable time after time. :cursing: The only thing that as consistently reduced my group size has been a lubed cushion wad under the PRB. I believe this is because it gives a better bore seal.

 

[Hisownself]

I recall years ago when I played paintball with big roundish gelatin balls traveling about 250fps, the precision wasn't great. You could watch the balls go somewhat straight and then wildly deflect down range. If a ball burst in the barrel (getting the paint on the inside of the barrel) any balls shot after that wildly deviated right after emerging from the barrel...there was no chance of hitting anything at that point. You had to clean the gunk out of the barrel. It makes me think that any projectile, especially a round ball with no spin, is going to be greatly influenced by any defects not evenly distributed on the surface of the ball. Dimples on a golf ball are more-or-less uniform all over the ball. But I bet if only one half of the ball was dimpled it would be unpredictable. So I wonder how small deviations on the lead ball cause it to fly wild down range?

I wonder if in all the years anyone has tried very precisely polished lead balls, uniform all over the surface, and if they have any better precision than a ball with a big old sprue hanging off of it?

 

[azmntman]

I have not

 

[FishDFly]

"I wonder if in all the years anyone has tried very precisely polished lead balls, uniform all over the surface, and if they have any better precision than a ball with a big old sprue hanging off of it?"


Precisely polished balls" or balls with golf ball dimples, chasing the dream, the dream is consistency, that is what accuracy is about.

Looking at the 1,000 yard targets in Ned Robert's book, folks have a long way to go to equal the old shooters.

Group, more is better, bell curve and statistics do not lie.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Indeed a dimpled ball would be unpredictable, look at a whiffle ball, as an extreme example.

 

[FishDFly]

The dimpled ball versus a round ball (sprue up or sprue down) has been debated as much as most things here.

There is no definitive answer, only speculation.

 

[Dewey]

The dimpled ball versus a round ball (sprue up or sprue down) has been debated as much as most things here.

There is no definitive answer, only speculation.

And probably would not make a noticeable difference for 99% of shooters, anyhoo.

 

[FishDFly]

Yes sir.

 

[Hisownself]

Maybe it's a job for Mythbusters!

 

[azmntman]

Perhaps I shall request a govt grant for the detailed study. $785,000.00 should get me started. :idunno: They spend more for less??

 

[FishDFly]

I need a part time job to supplement my Social Security.

 

[BrownBear]

I got an incredible 9-shot group of 3" at 25 yards from my 12 gauge smoothie. Of course, it was actually one shot while testing buckshot loads, but I was so impressed I saved the target. Never been close to duplicating it, but that's why it's a trophy group! :thumbsup:

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I had a great group going until I fired my 2nd shot. :grin:

 

[Grumpa]

:haha: :haha: I am going to save that line.

 

[smoothshooter]

If you mention in your Funding Request that the experiment is to be an assessment of the suspected detrimental effects of man - made global warming on yet another human activity practiced by tens of thousands of people, it will almost certainly expedite the appoval process. :grin: