The feasibility of returning to a more primitive season?

[bigbore442001]

I was thinking about the treestand vs ground blind post and what Swampy stated as well as my own observations. That is in regard to still hunting and hunting pressure in the southern New England area. Most of my deer hunting consists of bow hunting Connecticut and Massachusetts and then hunting Massachusetts with the shotgun and muzzleloader.

Needless to say hunting pressure can get rough. I recall hunting with a more primitive muzzleloader and seeing far fewer hunters in the woods. One of my favorite places to hunt deer was a state forest pretty close to my home. I have never harvested a deer in that state forest but my Dad has. Again I noticed that the pressure was significantly lighter during the muzzleloader season. In fact it was almost like the archery season. You could walk and rarely did you see anyone out in the woods. Once in a while you would see another hunter but for the most part, it was just Dad and I.

Now it seems that there is almost the same amount of hunting pressure with the muzzleloader as there is with the shotgun.

I sometimes wonder if it would be feasible to return to the older ways and have for a lack of a better term, a quality hunt where you have a greater senses of solitude? I know the biggest arguement will be that the seasons and regulations are established for the good of the herd,etc but what about the human component? Am I sounding elitist? Do you believe that states like Masssachusetts will return to the old days, so to speak?

 

[rabjr]

No, unfortunately no.

I remember when I started the same as you I was surprised when I actually had a guy with a long rifle walk up by me and then stopped to talk for a while, on State property. That year I bought one of about 265 tags sold for the entire State and 8 Deer were taken. Big difference today once we over turned the 1848 law of smoothbore only and allowed rifled guns and the fact that they have made muzzleloading easier for dummies, we have more buying muzzleloader tags than shotgun tags now. And this all paralleled a growing Deer herd.

The reason I say No is we don't harvest the Deer the State wants harvested and people are yelling at Fish and Wildlife about crop damage, Lyme etc. Last I knew we were under 5000 hunters trying to deal with the herd here and we are handcuffed in a lot of ways not being allowed to hunt in certain areas because of anti's.

Unless they see fit to give us a late Doe season here, maybe into January, I doubt they will give much thought to a primitive season here. Hell we had to ask for several years to be allowed to use our regular muzzleloaders during shotgun season, which we just got passed a year or so ago.

I really don't believe we will see anything like this here until we get a handle on the deer numbers. :idunno:

 

[DarenN]

no; i don't think you're sounding elitist at all.

i grew up in Saskatchewan where the early season was called "Primative Weapons". this included bows and muzzleloaders. here in British Columbia, there is a bow season but ML guns get lumped in with the regular season. no thanks!
i'd really like to see a return to the primative weapons season. no scopes no in-lines.
as an aside........ we could not hunt with crossbows at all in Saskatchewan, but we can in British Columbia during bow season.

 

[arctichomesteader]

I love my muzzleloaders but I've never been one to tell someone else how to hunt. I know too many people who rely on hunting for some of their food, here and up in Alaska, for one thing. Actually I'm somewhat in that category myself but I know my hunting grounds inside and out so well I can almost always fill my tags. I can understand the situation in Southern New England may be a bit different though. My favorite hunting grounds up here are generally not crowded, even during regular, modern rifle season (though I go to more remote areas too). We don't have the population density you do, and we have a lot more land protected.

 

[roundball]

Do you believe that states like Masssachusetts will return to the old days, so to speak?

I can't speak about Mass. specifically, but in general I don't think there's a snowball's chance of that ever happening.

I think the reasons are two fold:

1) There is the every increasing size of deer populations and the damage they cause to crops and residential yards, to say nothing of the constantly increasing deer/car collisions, injuries, deaths, insurance claims, etc.
So I don't think today's environment would allow a return to special seasons where only a small fraction of hunters would be allowed to hunt with primitive weapons, for the practical simple reason that less deer would be killed;

2) The other reason is that the horses are already out of the gate.
To now try and cancel / restructure all the hunting that has now come to be allowed during the seasons, just so a smaller number of hunters could hunt with primitive weapons, would cause a huge negative backlash from the public...attempts to pass legislation to reverse huntings seasons wouldn't survive.

Just my .02 cents on the matter...

 

[BrownBear]

I'm wondering if the growing deer population is such a problem, would it be possible to add a late season hunt. Since it would be new you could start out on the "right" foot to keep it primitive. Maybe make it smoothbore flintlock only. That would sure thin out the folks who hunted then while not taking away any hunting opportunities from those that hunt the other seasons. Seems like a win-win to me, and maybe your game department would see it the same way.

 

[rabjr]

The problem with that is, they already hand out unlimited crop damage permits to those who ask. My Uncle helps a land owner do this and can hunt all the way up to April if he wanted to. So you have propertys dotted all over the State doing this. The only hope we would have is places that only allow bow hunting and there was one town you had to hunt from a tree stand, they didn't want hunting to begin with and were afraid the arrows would travel to far so tree stands were a must, so you shot into the grown, in theroy. I seriously doubt that the bow only areas would ever allow a primative flintlock season instead but I've seen stranger things happen in this State heh. :idunno:

 

[Little Wattsy]

To me it all come down to the quality of the hunt. I get what you are saying but I personally would vote for an every other year hunt to cut hunters numbers in half... Just a thought? OR... Maybe more shorter seasons like a 1 week zip gun season, a 2 week traditional season (during the rut of course), a 2 week bow season, etc to spread every one out.???

 

[luieb45]

I'm not sure if hunting with firearms during the rut would be a good idea. In Illinois during the rut it is bow only which I believe is a good idea. Because it doesn't put much pressure on the deer. Even in a primitive flintlock season that would still be a lot of pressure on the deer and the deer would be more worried about getting shot rather than breeding which is what they should be worried about.

 

[rabjr]

To me it all come down to the quality of the hunt. I get what you are saying but I personally would vote for an every other year hunt to cut hunters numbers in half... Just a thought? OR... Maybe more shorter seasons like a 1 week zip gun season, a 2 week traditional season (during the rut of course), a 2 week bow season, etc to spread every one out.???

That wouldn't work here as we don't have that many hunters here to begin with and tag sales are not what they would like them to be. Mean while we keep loosing huntable lands which means the deer herd keeps getting bigger. Personally, I don't think it's no accident Coyotes and Fisher cats have come back in a big way here..

 

[rabjr]

I'm not sure if hunting with firearms during the rut would be a good idea. In Illinois during the rut it is bow only which I believe is a good idea. Because it doesn't put much pressure on the deer. Even in a primitive flintlock season that would still be a lot of pressure on the deer and the deer would be more worried about getting shot rather than breeding which is what they should be worried about.

I don't know about where you are but most States I've hunted here in New England including mine have their gun season around the Rut. It's the best time to hunt.

 

[luieb45]

Our firearm season is mainly in early December. It's not the rut that gets our deer to be on the move during shotgun season it's the amount of hunters out in the woods and the gun shots that bounce deer around. On the first days of deer season in the morning hours you will hear a gun shot every couple of seconds. Plus, Illinois has made it's deer hunting reputation mainly around bow hunting so I think that's another reason why we keep the rut bow only. Also to give you a rough idea of how many deer are killed in the 3 day gun season per county if the weather is not crappy we normally kill about 2,500 deer in 3 days then another 2,000 in the 2nd season.

 

[rabjr]

Right you field a hell of lot more hunters than we do. We could and should have the whole month of Nov, BP season. Used to be 3 weeks years ago and we would kill somewhere around 2000 Deer and a one week shotgun season in Dec would kill a little less than that. Bow hunter have from Sept to Jan 15 and kill around 600.

Now we are pushed into a two week season in BP in Nov, two week season in Shotgun in Dec with a couple of 2 or 3 day Doe only on private property :bull: the end of Dec into Jan. Unless they change things again this year. I sometimes wonder about our Biologists....theres no reason the whole month of November shouldn't be muzzleloader season, two weeks in Dec shotgun season. If the #'s don't add up, then have special Doe permit hunts end of Dec into Jan. But common sense is severely lacking here.

States like Vermont and Maine have a 2 week rifle season and kill thousands. I have no idea what their muzzleloader seasons are.

 

[luieb45]

WOW!!! I thought our muzzleloader season was generous and it lasts 3 days in mid december. But 2 weeks! But then again we can hunt with any legal firearm during firearm season. But for the inline guys they only use their muzzleloaders for 3 days and they might as well use their shotguns in regular gun season and the late winter doe hunts.

 

[tg]

" Even in a primitive flintlock season that would still be a lot of pressure on the deer and the deer would be more worried about getting shot rather than breeding which is what they should be worried about."

I doubt that at any time of year the bucks wake up and weigh the options based on whether they will be shot or not.

 

[luieb45]

Regardless of whether a flintlock season during the rut would make the deer feel pressured, Illinois would never put a season in there since Illinois is most known for it's archery season deer hunting.

 

[rabjr]

" Even in a primitive flintlock season that would still be a lot of pressure on the deer and the deer would be more worried about getting shot rather than breeding which is what they should be worried about."

I doubt that at any time of year the bucks wake up and weigh the options based on whether they will be shot or not.

I missed that quote for some reason. No Luie heavy hunting will not stop Deer from breeding. Alot happens at night you don't see. Also I've had Bucks run right by me who would have knocked me over if I was in the way to get to a hot Doe.

As far as your State being known as an Archery State, I don't know much about it but I'm willing to bet it has a very strong Archery Club/Lobby and thats probably the reason theres Archery instead of gun season during the Rut. Some States have a very strong Archery Lobby. N.Y would like to make some changes but are shut down all the time by the Archery Lobby.

 

[luieb45]

I guess you could say that since pretty much every hunter owns a bow and does some hunting. Another reason is probably all the 3-d archery tournaments and shoots we have around here. It's went down from what it was because around 2002 within 50 miles of here there was about 10 monthly 3-d shoots. Now there's only a couple.

 

[roundball]

"...be a lot of pressure on the deer and the deer would be more worried about getting shot rather than breeding which is what they should be worried about..."

You don't have to worry about deer breeding when they're in the rut...its a rare hunter who ever gets back in deep where most actual breeding takes place, plus they have all night

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Here in PA we have a dedicated flintlock season for about three weeks after Christmas. regular firearms is over by mid December. Only have to share the woods with archers and a few late season small game hunters. Some areas still get a bit crowded, but for the most part, you can hunt all day and not see another hunter.