The Future of Traditional Muzzleloaders?

[zimmerstutzen]

If traditional muzzle loader rifles are dying out. How come Kibler Longrifles can't make them fast enough. ?

That's an irrational comparison. Kibler is the most home owner friendly custom rifle kit. and yes there is demand, but cornering the limited market is like being the last station in the county to sell gasoline without alcohol. Folks will line up for gas for their antique vehicles, and small engine items. But the overall market is still limited.

Traditions is the only low end company left and their items are high compared to 40 years ago when they were just starting. This is in part due not just the US economy, but also the Spanish economy. The Spanish wage has increased substantially and the cost to make the guns has increased faster than inflation. Taxes and benefits for improved medical insurance and vacation in Europe in General has also increased much faster. That means the wholesale cost to importers is much higher in comparison to 40 years ago. In terms of the number of hours worked by an average joe to get a muzzle loader, today is much more expensive. My first muzzle loader, a CVA flintlock pistol kit, cost me, a college kid working weekends, about a half day's pay in 1971. Today, a person would have to make $65 an hour to buy the same kit for a half days pay.

 

[tenngun]

That's an irrational comparison. Kibler is the most home owner friendly custom rifle kit. and yes there is demand, but cornering the limited market is like being the last station in the county to sell gasoline without alcohol. Folks will line up for gas for their antique vehicles, and small engine items. But the overall market is still limited.

Traditions is the only low end company left and their items are high compared to 40 years ago when they were just starting. This is in part due not just the US economy, but also the Spanish economy. The Spanish wage has increased substantially and the cost to make the guns has increased faster than inflation. Taxes and benefits for improved medical insurance and vacation in Europe in General has also increased much faster. That means the wholesale cost to importers is much higher in comparison to 40 years ago. In terms of the number of hours worked by an average joe to get a muzzle loader, today is much more expensive. My first muzzle loader, a CVA flintlock pistol kit, cost me, a college kid working weekends, about a half day's pay in 1971. Today, a person would have to make $65 an hour to buy the same kit for a half days pay.

I think some of that price represents the decreased interest though. Any specialty part is going to be more expensive. .10 profit per unit is great if I can sell a million units. One unit is going to cost a lot more. Cigarettes are a good example. Time was when it was odd to meet a person who didn’t smoke. There have been wildly increased taxes to discourage smoking, but now it’s less then 20% of the population, and cigarettes are crazy expensive even with the taxes cigarettes would be a lot cheaper if we smoked at the rate they did in the 1950s

 

[Tankerchief]

Families are much smaller these days, and younger generations have almost no interest in traditional muzzleloaders. Hunters today are looking for the best, most high-tech muzzleloaders to hunt with, which is why commercial offerings for tradional guns get smaller every year. There will be exceptions, but I feel traditional muzzleloading will largely go by the wayside before I do.....

I have been watching out for a worthy young shooter to start to pass on my guns for years. I can't even find an unworthy kid. If it don't spit out bullets at a high rate of fire they don't want to shoot it. Now maybe when we reach historical milestones it will come back. But I think it takes popular media to drive something like this. Just don't see any big deal movies or TV shows that showpiece these guns. Jeramiah Johnson was a rare bird unlikely to happen again. Shows like Davey Crocket wouldn't be made today. Selling a gun toting, all American hero to kids..? The protests would be epic.

There are some shows where the hero carries a gun. But, you're right it's always an assault weapon with multiple magazines. It was the movie Jeramiah Johnson that made me fall in love with a .50 cal Hawkin. I just wish it hadn't taken until this year (age 59) to finally have the time to dive into the sport. The other problem is not just finding quality firearms; but equipment and supplies to use them. As the market shrinks so do sources for us to use. Fewer places to turn to for supplies = higher prices. How long until the sport/hobby prices us all out?

 

[B P Arn]

I have addressed the "give away" concept a few times when this topic comes up. Some how there is a general perception that we are promoting the hobby to the young by giving them free stuff--they shoot free and have no investment whatsoever in the hobby. Of course they will like it! And then...and then we stop encouraging and promoting. I have been in the marketing business for years and have seen minimal and less than expected results from the give away concepts. Yup. I had to grin when you said the rifles are wall hangers. Then you get all of those who criticize our attempts to look period correct. Here we go again.

Yes, there may be a couple of relatives who stick with the hobby but compare their numbers with the retention of the large group initially involved. But we continue to do the same type of one time free shooting.... Go figure.

That right there!

 

[B P Arn]

....
When “they” take our guns away BP firearms would suddenly become more desirable. I hope that day is after I’m taking a dirt nap but I sure wouldn’t bet on it!

Why would anyone think black powder guns would not be banned also?

 

[Old-Duckman]

Why would anyone think black powder guns would not be banned also?

Oh I think that they will do that too but not initially. I think the easiest way for them to hose BP shooters is making components difficult or nearly impossible to find. They can always tax the heck out of anything to make it difficult for the average person to own. That has already been proposed in areas of the US along with taxing ammo. Of course those measures are for the unmentionables for now.

Should it come down to a complete communist style take over, the only way that the “people“ would prevail would be through guerrilla warfare, and there would be heavy losses. Of course there could be a military coup, that is always a possibility. Let’s hope that none of these scenarios happen, at least in our lifetime.

 

[TobJohn]

Young people generally have a lot less money than older generations did at each age point. With decreased availability of powder and less places to shoot for muzzleloaders, its a pretty big barrier to entry. If you are interested in firearms, for the price of a decent quality long rifle and accessories, you can get a Gucci ar-15, or top of the line any other type of gun, which goes bang multiple times, verse once. The literal bang for your buck makes it a hard decision for young folk.

 

[Dale Lilly]

Years ago, in Arizona, my first wife [deceased] shot her CVA Frontier rifle [under $125 new] in a shoot with about 20 other women. Some were shooting beautiful custom guns. She won. I still have that rifle on our wall, and it is one of my current wife's favorites. I saw one listed. recently, in nice condition, for less than $200. ML need not be expensive to be fun. Polecat

 

[TobJohn]

Years ago, in Arizona, my first wife [deceased] shot her CVA Frontier rifle [under $125 new] in a shoot with about 20 other women. Some were shooting beautiful custom guns. She won. I still have that rifle on our wall, and it is one of my current wife's favorites. I saw one listed. recently, in nice condition, for less than $200. ML need not be expensive to be fun. Polecat

$200????

While there are plenty of cheap options and you can find amazing deals if you are crafty, at first look, it goes from cheap foreign made, to expensive custom made with little in between.

 

[Dale Lilly]

$200????

While there are plenty of cheap options and you can find amazing deals if you are crafty, at first look, it goes from cheap foreign made, to expensive custom made with little in between.

Yes. I also recently purchased two Investarms ML rifles, similar to TC Hawkens, for $225 each. They appear to be unfired. One is a .50 cal "Investarms" with no retailer name. The other is an identical "Investarms" but .45 cal marked for Charles Daly. Bought both in pawn shops about 15 miles apart in small Oklahoma towns. Both are in near pristine condition. Polecat [BTW: I bought my .45 cal TC Hawken in another small OK town, about 8 years ago, for $150. It is in excellent condition with a very pretty walnut stock. Actually, my wife bought it for me as an anniversary present ]

 

[TobJohn]

Yes. I also recently purchased two Investarms ML rifles, similar to TC Hawkens, for $225 each. They appear to be unfired. One is a .50 cal "Investarms" with no retailer name. The other is an identical "Investarms" but .45 cal marked for Charles Daly. Bought both in pawn shops about 15 miles apart in small Oklahoma towns. Both are in near pristine condition. Polecat

You should financially advise the youth folk haha

 

[Dale Lilly]

You should financially advise the youth folk haha

Ya think any young'n would listen to a 90 year old man BTW: I added to that post, take a look. Polecat

 

[TobJohn]

Ya think any young'n would listen to a 90 year old man

Thats…. A fair point

 

[Erwan]

The Future of Traditional Muzzleloaders, you say?

I can’t talk about what is going to come in the USA, but I can well talk about what is happening in Absurdistan (another name for Macronistan), and you can trust me that all great times are gone very far…In my shooting club, we are four hundred and sixty-nine shooters, during a long time I was the only regular black powder hooter. For the past few years, I have taught two young shooters, and in fact, now we are four BP shooters (including my wife). All the others are shooters only with plastic gremlins like plastic guns and handguns: nobody wants to shoot the black powder: it’s old fashion, dirty, and stinks.
For the rest and for the guys that could be interested it’s very difficult since the six last month:
- Flintlocks: out of stock everywhere.
- Caps: out of stock everywhere.
- Black Powder: out of stock everywhere.
-Traditions Firearms (Ardesa) and other low cost brands don’t furnish anything in the country, Uberti has become a lower quality than before but the very expensive brand, Pedersoli is expensive too and frequently out of stock. Dedinski is more expensive than the others and Pietta is largely out of stock too.
- The government had taken the choice of stopping the manufacturing of the BP and the substitutes are prohibited.
And all this is only a very little part of the problems, so, do you think that young people are going to shoot with traditional weapons after all that?
For us, this sport and hobby are largely death and the great life of the new is in place for the replacement…
This is not a real problem for me: I'm seventy-five old, but what could become for the next generations...?

For us, the BP shooting is death (that is what I think in all cases), when could it happen in the USA?...

 

[TDM]

Gives me no pleasure to say it, but it's only a matter of time for here too.

 

[Old-Duckman]

Erwan, sorry to hear of the sad state of affairs in the Great North. Such a beautiful country being systematically destroyed by globalist pukes!

The only thing currently keeping the USA from falling into the same sad state is our 2nd amendment to the constitution. The constitution itself is being chipped away and ignored on a daily basis in our country by our so called leaders who are nothing but traitorous grifters. Of course there are some in our government, thank God, who still do believe in the freedom and liberty that our country was founded on. Sadly that number is few.

The globalist trash has infected every country with any semblance of freedom. Your homeland of Canada and Australia are two of the most notable examples but they have their demonic hooks into the majority of the world I'd dare say.

Teach the children and grand children what freedom and liberty are (God knows that our public education system no longer does) and let them know that once they give those us that they will not be regained. If they ever are regained it will only be through the loss of many lives.

I too feel much the same way that you do in that I have said to my co-workers, many times..."I'm glad I'm old." But my heart breaks for the little ones, they will never know the level of freedom that we enjoyed in our lifetime.

 

[user 53891]

Those funny looking clothes you mention secured a nation. We're just paying our respect to carrying on the history so people dont forget. Not too many nerds in the hobby that i've met

Wrong person....I didn't mention anything about funny looking clothes.

 

[BlackRock52]

I have zero friends that shoot traditional and only 2-3 (including my son) that shoot inline. I watched way too much Dan'l Boone I guess....

 

[BlackRock52]

Ditto. Dan'l Boone and Jeremiah Johnson....
My son is interested (33) and wants to extend his hunting options...but I kinda think he thinks there's too much busy work with front stuffers in terms of equipment, steps to follow, and the headache of cleaning when compared to more modern unmentionables...hopefully, I have enuff time to get him past the interested stage and get him truly hooked

 

[BlackRock52]

I don't think it's dying. I think where you see it is just changing. People are sharing how they enjoy the hobby on social media. Hershel House's group on Facebook alone has 22k members posting hourly. We have young people including my 11 year old son participating in hunting and shooting events. Young adults are getting into muzzleloader building.

Youth shoot this year. This is the future of the sport:
View attachment 181172

My son shooting a Fowler I built at Friendship:
View attachment 181174

Shooting his TC Seneca:
View attachment 181175

Here's a friend of mine that I got into muzzleloading this year and took him on his first deer hunt. He's hooked!
View attachment 181176
If you think it's dying go look at these groups on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/304562264191306/?ref=share
https://www.facebook.com/groups/523167064790655/?ref=share
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1645657645749755/?ref=share
https://www.facebook.com/groups/145990786160105/?ref=share
There is still a very strong interest in our sport. It's not in it's hay day but definitely not going to die off because TC stopped making side locks. That's my 2 cents from where I stand. It's all perception but I see it carrying on.

Good to know -- as for me, no SM of any kind and especially no FB -- in fact, no cell phone as well