I don't know where you are from, and where ever that is, I truly hope traditional black powder does not 'die off'. But here in central Illinois it is DEAD. The ML club I joined last spring is dying and they will lose their leased ground sooner than later. When that happens, it's curtains for that club. I've tried, I mean really tried to get anyone involved in trad ML. Including FREE perc. cap sidelocks with basic accessories. I have more ML's then I will ever shoot. Some of which where given to me and that I would give to any interested 'newbie'. No one wants anything to do with them.
The Future of Traditional Muzzleloaders?
- Thread starter Urban Coyote
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My first was a CVA Kentucky rifle, second hand partially assembled kit. Not necessarily "top of the line", but it got me hooked. I think that affordable traditional style guns are important to help people get their toes in the muzzleloading water. If not for that first cheap CVA or tradition or whatever, how many of us would've ever bought or built a custom gun?
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NOPE newbies need to start some where and low end guns are the answer !We all start somewhere unless your wishing for the end of BP shooting . The sport needs new blood not bleeding out as your suggestion would result in/Ed
This guy gets it!
and i guess we should all have a ferrari for our first car , a house with more rooms than we can ever use, ect. most start a new hobby at the lower end in case its not for them.. or its the best they can do at the time. if it shoots and is not dangerous it is all some people want or need. having an expensive gun does not mean one can use it. thats been proven many times.
Col. Batguano
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The lack of low end guns is symptomatic of the market, and the ML'ing niche in general. E.g.; If there was a (bigger) market for them there would be more of them. That said, there ARE imported guns (Indian, Spanish) that fill that niche. The thing is, that the market IS and always has been somewhat small compared to more modern stuff. That means that the line set-up costs have to be amortized over a smaller number of guns. The other thing that has taken away from the low-end traditional guns is the increasing popularity of in-lines.
That is, a large percentage of people get in to ML'ing in order to extend their hunting seasons, and are most interested in the most efficient way to do so---modern in-lines currently fill that niche. They often move from those guns to the more traditional guns as their knowledge, experience and financial means allows growth--- out of a matter of intellectual curiosity if for no other reason.
It's really just human nature. As people, it seems the older we get, the more interest we seem to naturally have in the past. Most genealogy research is sponsored by people 60+. Putting it another way; 20-somethings have much less interest in researching their long-passed relatives then they do in creating future ones!
Or, yet another way; as humans, we have most knowledge of, and are (most) naturally interested in ourselves, and "fitting in" with our contemporaries. When we are young, as we are a part of the future, we are interested in how we might interact with it and impact it. As we reach maturity, and become a part of the contemporary "movers and shakers" generation, so too our interest lies there. As we age, and reach senior status, so migrates our interests in, and our hierarchal standing AS a part of history.
So, interests in traditional ML'ing is going to naturally always going to be the primary purview of those most interested in history and the past, which is by human nature a more senior pursuit. I bet if you could somehow track the "median age of traditional ML'ers" over the last 50 years it wouldn't have changed a whole lot.
That is, a large percentage of people get in to ML'ing in order to extend their hunting seasons, and are most interested in the most efficient way to do so---modern in-lines currently fill that niche. They often move from those guns to the more traditional guns as their knowledge, experience and financial means allows growth--- out of a matter of intellectual curiosity if for no other reason.
It's really just human nature. As people, it seems the older we get, the more interest we seem to naturally have in the past. Most genealogy research is sponsored by people 60+. Putting it another way; 20-somethings have much less interest in researching their long-passed relatives then they do in creating future ones!
Or, yet another way; as humans, we have most knowledge of, and are (most) naturally interested in ourselves, and "fitting in" with our contemporaries. When we are young, as we are a part of the future, we are interested in how we might interact with it and impact it. As we reach maturity, and become a part of the contemporary "movers and shakers" generation, so too our interest lies there. As we age, and reach senior status, so migrates our interests in, and our hierarchal standing AS a part of history.
So, interests in traditional ML'ing is going to naturally always going to be the primary purview of those most interested in history and the past, which is by human nature a more senior pursuit. I bet if you could somehow track the "median age of traditional ML'ers" over the last 50 years it wouldn't have changed a whole lot.
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I started with a KY .45 CVA kit as a paperboy. My most expensive now is my Kibler. I still troll here and around looking for the deals on the low end starter guns and my CVA Hawkin is a 2" group at 90 yds every time I have taken it out.
HighUintas
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I'm a little more worried about parts suppliers for ML builders. Most of those companies are run by older guys and their families. Most of their customers are older, I would guess.
Hopefully there continues to be enough interest in building to support these suppliers.
Thanks Kibler Longrifles for being the ML building gateway drug!
Hopefully there continues to be enough interest in building to support these suppliers.
Thanks Kibler Longrifles for being the ML building gateway drug!
Been purchasing factory traditional muzzleloaders for many years. Mostly TC but have a few CVA, Lyman and Investarms as well. A LGS I frequent has probably 20 or so used rifles on hand. Mostly percussion but once in awhile a flinter. Not much demand so prices are pretty fair. Has several TC Renegades for $350 to $400.
Careful , your elitism is showing
zimmerstutzen
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There were low end, like the Century arms 58 caliber flintlock muskets that couldn't fire because the frizzens were not hardened, and there were low end like the Replica Arms guns from Italy or CVA guns from Spain. The latter group differed immensely because they worked. Maybe not great with 3 thousandths of a second ignition, but they worked. I paid $29.99 for my first flintlock kit, a CVA Kentucky Pistol Kit in late 1971. If I had to spend $500 or more at the time, I would probably never had gotten involved with muzzle loading.
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There are many factors leading to the decline of muzzle loading firearms. Demand is down for traditional muzzleloaders as most young people's first exposure to "firearms" is through video games that promote the latest modern weapons which is what they seek out when looking for actual firearms. Cost of guns in general create a roadblock. I have purchased three modern guns this year and the total that i spent on them would not allow me to purchase one decent ML. (don't get me wrong, I have LOTS of both modern and muzzle loaders). Additionally many state regulations make it increasingly difficult for traditional black powder guns such as here in NY with the states regulations making it very difficult to find real black powder (even if there wasn't a shortage). There is the "woke" push to demean history if not rewrite it totally. Having been a teenager when the Bicentennial occurred and a fan of history it led me to purchasing my first muzzle loader, a TC Hawken followed by a couple of pistols. Ordering them via mail order catalog was the only way I could afford them on a paperboy's income. Here we are just a few years short of another big anniversary of the founding of this nation and I don't here anything being talked about to make it a special time. My hope is to save enough money next year to order two matching Kibler Colonial kits to make and present to my grandson's in 2026.
Like most things in our busy lives, interest can (is) be driven my media exposure. If you really want to see more people involved in trad'l ML the best thing to happen would be a resurgence in movies like Jeramiah Johnson, The mountain Men, and TV shows like Daniel Boone and Davey Crocket. Perhaps with a somewhat new revival of westerns the genre might transition back to the earlier days of beaver trapping , Rev War or F & I war. Of course these videos need to have a true star involved like a Hawken, long rifle or musket. I'm not holding my breath for it to happen though so I will do my best to promote ML to anyone I can.
Yes, I'm a gray beard and out of the 10 or so guys who come to deer camp, I'm the only one dedicated to BP. The camp owner still keeps a Renegade flinter for late season but I know it hasn't been shot much since the '70's.
Yes, I'm a gray beard and out of the 10 or so guys who come to deer camp, I'm the only one dedicated to BP. The camp owner still keeps a Renegade flinter for late season but I know it hasn't been shot much since the '70's.
If traditional muzzle loader rifles are dying out. How come Kibler Longrifles can't make them fast enough. ?
This is sage advice.
What drove the muzzle loading craze in the 20th century was TV and movies...,
Daniel Boone TV show
Davy Crocket Disney Movies, and episodes on The Wonderful World of Disney TV shows...,
There was an uptick when Jeremiah Johnson hit the screen,
The Outlaw Josey Wales sparked some new interest in cap-n-ball revolvers,
The Last of The Mohicans and The Patriot sparked some interest in Flintlocks...,
Now in this century...
Black Sails on Cable TV sparked interest in The Golden Age of Piracy, so much that Renaissance Fairs that go more than two weekends often have one or even two weekends dedicated to "pirates", even though The GAoP was after the Renaissance... but it makes money... Yet TURИ on cable TV didn't seem to have as much impact and Jamestown was crapola, and failed, so it too didn't help...., There's a "run" on swords, especially Viking swords due to Game of Thrones, The Last Kingdom and Vikings... but cable TV shows don't reach nearly as many people today as TV did in the 1960's... percentage wise that is...
SO..., we'd see a jump if something entertainment wise became popular and popular for several years, such as...
IF a well done TV series (I know that's asking a LOT) appeared concerning the flintlock era, and/or maybe a Sci Fi dystopian-post apocalypse setting series was produced where the main characters lived in a settlement where flintlocks were what was used for hunting as well as bows/swords/knives/tomahawks for personal protection, but modern stuff was horded for community defense as it was a dwindling supply due to a technology crash..., That would push folks wanting to own and shoot flinters. (Archery has seen a huge jump, especially among women, due in large part to The Hunger Games)
BUT the problem with such TV shows is that American entertainment doesn't want to do stuff "right". They just want to have a modern story but have the folks in antique clothing..., and even then have them wear the clothing wrong..., so the production sucks and it just doesn't catch on...
LD
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The future of traditional muzzleloaders is bright! I have a 27 year old son, two mid 20’s sons-in-law and a grandson. They are all involved in traditional black powder shooting (except the 18 month old grandson ;-) !
When I go tot the shooting range there is always a bunch of people that come over to see what I am shooting. Most of them have never seen anyone shoot a flintlock. There is interest when people are actually exposed to it. If you want to get people interested in muzzleloaders, go to a public shooting range. Bring some cool guns. Talk to people and people give it a try if they show interest.
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