The Future of Traditional Muzzleloaders?

[Harmonica Bob]

This is a "nitch" hobby. I don't believe that they ever stopped building tradional rifles. This is not for "mainstream" shooters. As far as I know, the custom builders have all the work that they can stand! The kits they offer make a really nice rifle, affordable to anyone with a job. In my state it's just deer season! 4 1/2 months out of the year. But, I still see black powder shooters at the range, with nice rifles. If anything, the internet brings shooters, builders, suppliers, and auctions together, and insures that this "nerdy"hobby will continue!

 

[Mr. Flintlock]

It's no secret T/C has long been out of the "traditional" sidelock muzzleloader business. Lyman appears to have gotten out of the business. Investmentarms, once maker of Lyman and others is offering what appears to be the former Lyman line that have been renamed, reports indicate later Lyman marketed guns are not a good as those from the past. Pedersoli is still making guns but feedback suggests their quality is hit and miss. Traditions and some others are still around, but for how long?

Will future shooters find it increasingly difficult to find new production muzzleloaders of traditional designs? Will used muzzleloaders, condition often an iffy proposition, of traditional design become the only option aside from custom offerings?

My crystal ball has me thinking if one wants a quality production muzzleloader of traditional design the clock is ticking and it might be wise to pick up a quality used or new old stock gun before it's too late.

Your thoughts?

I think it's dying a slow death. Traditional muzzleloading has become.very expensive for the entry level person who. wants to do traditional stuff. Custom rifles.run 2 to 10k. Custom powder horn 250 bag 250. Then talk about clothes mocs,, tent etc,etc,etc. Hard for young people to get into it.

 

[Zapadach]

I think it's dying a slow death. Traditional muzzleloading has become.very expensive for the entry level person who. wants to do traditional stuff. Custom rifles.run 2 to 10k. Custom powder we rhorn 250 bag 250. Then talk about clothes mocs,, tent etc,etc,etc. Hard for young people to get into it.

I remember when I bought my first muzzleloading rifle, I was in my early twenties, it cost me less than one third of my weekly take home pay. I had a blue collar job at the time. That situation no longer exists today. Back then you could buy a new Musket or rifle for less the a modern gun, unless of course you bought a Mossberg 12 gage shotgun that you could get on sale for about eighty bucks.

 

[Harmonica Bob]

Us "old guy's" are always willing to help newbies, or basicly anyone who posts a question. I don't want to die before revealing my 50 year's of experience with muzzleoaders! The problem is that if you ask 100 guy's a question, you are bound to get 150 answers! lol. and most of them correct! Anyway, the best advice that I was given was by Dutch Schoultz. This info is in his book "black powder accuracy".

 

[cynthialee]

I have been watching out for a worthy young shooter to start to pass on my guns for years. I can't even find an unworthy kid. If it don't spit out bullets at a high rate of fire they don't want to shoot it. Now maybe when we reach historical milestones it will come back. But I think it takes popular media to drive something like this. Just don't see any big deal movies or TV shows that showpiece these guns. Jeramiah Johnson was a rare bird unlikely to happen again. Shows like Davey Crocket wouldn't be made today. Selling a gun toting, all American hero to kids..? The protests would be epic.

 

[Zzmudd58]

I believe alot of it is just culture. Being a kid in the late sixties, I always wanted to be a gunslinger for Halloween!!! Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett!!! Loved them shows. Jeremiah Johnson!!! One of my favorite lines..."you ever skin grizz" . The only real movie lately to portray that time period is the Revenant. Kids in general aren't exposed to it anymore. Unless a parent or friend is into it, they just shove their face into YouTube and learn ????

 

[sheriff john]

Everyone's intro to muzzle loading's different. One common denominator is that we all got into it and continue because it's FUN. Old guys like to tell stories about stuff that happened 60 years ago and that's valuable, but that time has passed. One basic difference is simply there are far fewer opportunities to enjoy muzzle loading with like-minded folks today.

Might be hard for younger people to visualize, but for years there were enough informal "shoots/matches" held that from spring to fall, we could find an event every weekend to enjoy. It was FUN and all ages, genders, skill levels, etc. were welcome. Wasn't always "clubs". County fairs, church picnics, Lions' Clubs, etc. held them. We made a lot of friends, too.

One difference I see today is pretty simple. Modern in-lines have taken over the market, yet they are not welcome. If we truly wish to see muzzle loading continue, those matches might see a revival if inclusion were possible. Don't envision allowing them to compete with traditionals, but it's a simple thing to set up matches to encourage all muzzle loading folks to join in the fun. Anyway ...just a thought.

Pretty hard for a would-be muzzle loader to start out with a traditional gun when there are none on the shelves to purchase.

 

[Flint Striker]

I’ve been out of traditional muzzleloaders for a bit, but looking to get back in (why I rejoined here). Some of the older economical guns are out of production, but at the same time people are having great successes assembling their own custom muzzleloaders from Kibler and other kits. I think there are both pros and cons right now.

 

[dave951]

I want to throw this out there. In our working to expand muzzleloading in Scott camps, one huge obstacle is a lack of rifles. That's partly why I bring 5 "Zouaves" with me along with a couple round ball guns.

With the video we're working on, and the efforts of others in other Councils, black powder/muzzleloading may be starting to grow. Part of those growing pains is getting a camp outfitted with a set of rifles. Next time you're looking at the "starter" rifle in the corner and wondering what to do with it, consider donating to a youth shooting sports program.

Several of the rifles in carry are donated. They would otherwise have been languishing in a closet. Now a kid is getting to discover the fun of black powder instead.

Give this route some thought

 

[nhmoose]

My son is not into ML at all, He shot competition with them from 8 years old. He likes more modern now NFA stuff. It is what floats your boat not what we just like. By the way I also love NFA.

 

[stikshooter]

New to the forum and wanted to give my two cents. Have shot a 50 cal renegade since 73 and have a 32 cal for plinking. Live in New Jersey and look over my shoulder after every shot for the police in my yard. Sorry to say but most anyone I know who shoots BP has an inline. Most people I know who shoot bow use a cross bow. My friends and club members who fly fish look like they walked out of an orvis store. There has to be a tie in there some where. can you find a place to hunt,fish or even walk if it isn’t a state game land. Difficult on the east coast for most.
( luckily not me). I have to agree with lower end rifles that are safe. Gotta get them hooked.

I grew up Literally in NJ and said not for me , Early 70,s and left and it has been downhill for NJ since . Me I live now in NYS live on club grounds , 1700+ acres and hunt/ fish year round our ponds/lakes are preserves so we set the rules (fishing) and all accessible by UTV helpful when trapping and a short (200 yard) and a long range(800 yard) again we make the rules ! and not for nothing I do not look back or visit any place I can't carry/Ed

 

[SwanShot]

I disagree....
I would like to see even more "low end" guns being built. New shooters can't find factory reasonably priced guns anywhere. If a new shooter gets involved with the hobby with a "low end" gun....they eventually will pick up a better gun if they stay interested. I don't know of anyone that forks out $1200.00 - $1500.00 for a custom gun unless they know exactly what they are looking for or has been shooting already.
I started out with a Tradition's Woodsman Hawken percussion rifle in 2013. They aren't worth much, probably $150.00-$175.00 here in KY.
The most expensive gun I own ( including a custom one ) cost me $700.00. ( or less. )

Well said sir----well said indeed.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I think the term "low end" needs some clarification. To me, the only worthwhile gun also has to be (safety first of course) RELIABLE. A gun that doesn't reliably go off will turn off more newbies than it turns on.

The heart of any ML'er of course is the barrel, but before that it has to have a reliable lock. It's much easier to create a lock that will reliably snap a cap than a flint gun that will reliably ignite a pan. And even if a FL IS tuned properly, there are still a bunch of reasons it won't go shhh'bang reliably. (Insert countless threads regarding; "My Flinter won't shoot reliably" here.) For that reason I think the entry-level guy is BEST introduced to their FIRST ML'er as either an in-line or cap gun. We want them to have fun and experience success first. The "school of hard knocks" can wait till later.

 

[SwanShot]

I think it's dying a slow death. Traditional muzzleloading has become.very expensive for the entry level person who. wants to do traditional stuff. Custom rifles.run 2 to 10k. Custom powder horn 250 bag 250. Then talk about clothes mocs,, tent etc,etc,etc. Hard for young people to get into it.

You do know you don't have to do all that stuff, don't you?
I am a man of very limited means. I shoot in jeans and whatever shirt smelled ok. I picked up a couple of plain leather ladies bags at goodwill stores. I use plastic spouted containers to dispense powder, etc,etc.

 

[SwanShot]

What a newbie shooter needs is a gun, ammunition, the basic acroutments to do the job, and someone to get them started. Whatever happens after that is what happens.

 

[SwanShot]

Yes! Bought my oldest son a traditions deerhunter perc kit gun for Christmas when he was 6. Hes now 10, has killed 2 deer with it, (first is my profile pic at 9 y.o.) and countless unsuspecting cardboard boxes. He loves it! I bought 2 more kit guns for friends who were interested, they built them with their kids, but the parents are lacking the motivation to shoot with the kids. As far as i know, the other two kits have never been shot. I bought a crockett last year, and killed 3 grey squirrels the first time out. Now my kid wants one. Lol. Its addictive as all get out, and the cheapest thing around to shoot. It just takes a local "friend" willing to share the passion and advice. Maybe each one of us should make it a goal to mentor at least 1 "youth" (for some, that may be a 50 year old, for others a 15), or start a small group of friends meeting to shoot and b.s. once a month or whatever... you cant change the world, but you can change your community. If each of us does that... the world changes.

I've entrapped one 18 yr old so far and I'm working on another young bloke, 30ish. I do it by inviting them along to our monthly shoot. I charge them $10 for ammo etc and let them shoot my renegade because it is an easy rifle to shoot accurately with. If they keep coming back I reckon it takes only four shoots to hook em. The reason i charge them is advice from a profesional industrial trainer. If you pay for something, even if it's only a token fee, you be more invested in it.

 

[Mr. Flintlock]

You do know you don't have to do all that stuff, don't you?
I am a man of very limited means. I shoot in jeans and whatever shirt smelled ok. I picked up a couple of plain leather ladies bags at goodwill stores. I use plastic spouted containers to dispense powder, etc,etc.

I'm not trying to be a snob but I believe the author of this thread said "TRADITIONAL" That being said everyone starts somewhere.

 

[SwanShot]

I'm not trying to be a snob but I believe the author of this thread said "TRADITIONAL" That being said everyone starts somewhere.

My point exactly. What matters most is that someone starts in the game. Whether or not they take to the traditional scene is to be be as it will be.

 

[S.Kenton]

And you sir are wrong. No beginner is going to shell out $1500++++ for a custom gun. The low end guns have their place. Or is it that you don't care if 'newbies' ever become interested in black powder?

Those lower end firearms as they’ve been called is what got me into this hobby well over 20 years ago. I didn’t have the money when i started to buy a custom and why would I even want to, if I’m simply testing the water? The very first muzzle loader I got was in 1994 it was a T/C Hawken, then I gave that to my dad and purchased a CVA Kentucky rifle, both rifles preformed excellent and if it weren’t for that, I’d maybe have shyed away from the whole black powder scene. I’d still like to find an old CVA plains rifle someday..

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

Some of my best shooting is with a $150.00 Traditions Woodsman Hawken percussion gun.
I have better accuracy with it than I do a custom built rifle.
Low end guns are a necessity to keep the hobby alive.