The GOEX Plant is shutting down

[smo]

Problem is “we” didn’t vote the rascals in…..

 

[megasupermagnum]

800x is discontinued? Oh for pete's sakes! They are simply going down the list of powders that can not be replaced, and getting rid of them. I've got the choice of about 6 IMR's, 6 Hodgdon's, and a couple Winchester powder for any single rifle cartridge, 308 Winchester in this case. Why not discontinue one or 6 of those?

Loading shotgun is getting to be absolutely ludicrous. For reasons I wont get into here, I will not use Longshot for heavy shotgun loads. It's only good at light and fast. 800x was THE single shotgun powder left from Hodgdon for heavy field loads. HS6 isn't that good, and never was. Why on earth they got rid of HS7, but kept HS6 I'll never know.'

All these shotgun wads keep being discontinued. The European market is so inconsistent, I hate to use theirs. Winchester used to have an entire line of wads you could use from super light, all the way to 1 1/2oz magnums, almost all gone now. I'm sick of shoehorning wads not made for something into a load.

Christ, if Alliant discontinues Bluedot, my entire life's work of loading shotguns will be gone. I'll have to start completely over from scratch. With 800x, SR 4756, and HS7 gone, Bluedot is the only smokeless heavy field load powder left in existence. If 800x is gone, I know 700x is on the chopping block, and most of my lighter loads are with that.

If either Hodgdon or Alliant came out with "improved" powders it wouldn't be so bad, but they haven't yet. 800x got it's slow burn rate by having large flakes. This allowed it unique attirbutes for low pressures. Longshot is the polar opposite of what 800x is. 800x was about the only powder you could get magnum level loads from at only 5,000-6,000 psi for old guns. This can't be replaced by any powder except real blackpowder... but oh, wait.

 

[flashpoint]

OK. If you had to select the absolute best BP that would be the closest in quality and performance to GOEX, what would it be?

 

[megasupermagnum]

Closest in quality is Swiss. Goex did not rate their grades the same as Europe, so their performance can't be compared. You can compare velocities, but they use different grades, and different wood/charcoal at the very least. I'm mostly a shotgun shooter, and I love Goex Fg, both regular and Olde Eynsford. I don't much like Swiss Fg.

 

[Woody Morgan]

OK. If you had to select the absolute best BP that would be the closest in quality and performance to GOEX, what would it be?

Probably Scheutzen. Swiss is top notch stuff from what I've seen in low fouling and consistent performance. You use 10% less Swiss than the equivalent Goex/Scheutzen load too.
My comparison and mine only:
Goex = Scheutzen
Olde Eynsford = Swiss

ymmv

wm

 

[Brent]

Just my 2 cents...........

They brought out "new" and "improved" powders, such as longshot, but DID NOT produce new data for said powders for bismuth,

Not sure what this has to do with muzzleloading, but you need to look at their website again. Also, it is pretty easy to develop Bi loads from Pb loads, but there are explicit Bi loads for Longshot. I use them.

 

[Skeggs]

Two things: insurance is more powerful than the government to many companies.
Our small aviation charter business (5 planes) was doing pretty well, making a small percentage profit, then the insurance company presented us with a $1 million bill for the next 12 months, payable in 30 days, in full. No safety issues, no accidents, no warning.
We closed the business.
Next:
Osha, epa, etc are simply rules and regulations. Follow them or suffer the wrath of uncle sam.
But companies must carry lots of insurance, and insurance inspectors make osha, et al, look like boy scouts.
Like banks with loans, you do what they say, when they say, and how they say: immediately. When they say jump, your only reply is how high and which way.
Insurance has only a couple of underwriters such as Lloyd's at the top. Everyone ends up under the same umbrella, no matter who you purchase from.
Hodgdon likely saw rates go up beyond the cost of capital repairs, if not just simply canceled outright.
Millions, no doubt. Many, many millions to reopen.
I have a variety of issues with Hodgdon and I am not very fond of them.
But the reality is likely as I just described.
Even profitable, low debt (or even debt-free) companies rarely have millions sitting in their checking account.
Fewer yet will spend millions on a piece of paper that promises to cover your losses, but if a violation of their rules is found after an event, well, you get zip, nada, nothing.
Unrestrained civil suits and billion dollar law firms have driven us to this point.
And most politicians are lawyers.
Few are poor.

 

[Dude]

Well put, Skeggs.

 

[Brazos John]

Unrestrained civil suits and billion dollar law firms have driven us to this point.
And most politicians are lawyers.
Few are poor.

Lawyers and politicians.
Lower than snake bellies.

 

[excess650]

800x is discontinued? Oh for pete's sakes!

It appears that they have discontinued all of the single based shotshell powders, so 4756, 800x, PB, and 4759 are all gone. They HAD made IMR Blue that was to replicate Blue Dot, but that appears to have been discontinued.

I shot some of the early, grey, odd granuled Elephant from Brazil, and it was weak and made lots of soft fouling. The improved Elephant (25-99 and later lots) was much improved with black, shiny, more consistent grain sizes. Elephant got flooded out, and the plant was relocated and produce Diamondback, and it looked much like the 25-99 Elephant, but I can't say that I ran both across the chrono. Diamondback ffg made drier fouling than did Goex, but I was able to use a duplex 15gr Goex fffg and 65gr Diamondback ffg in my .50 flinter, and then it behaved much like Goex.

The early lot (2000?)of KIK from Slovenia seemed to have soft grains. I shot ffg in flintlocks, and it worked just fine. The later lot (2010?) seemed to be loved by the BPCRS crowd, but I never found any to try.

My experience with Swiss was that it made drier fouling, and put lots of heat in the barrel. Their fffg was great in my percussion revolver, but I had my best luck in cartridges with their coarsest grade. The BPCRS guys who use it wipe between shots almost exclusively.

I've never shot any Goex OE or Schuetzen.

Back on subject, has anyone seen any news of Goex being sold?

 

[springfield art]

The military has a mothballed BP factory in Indiana. All they have to do is activate it for their supply. OR just buy it overseas.

"All" they have to do? It's likely a decaying empty building. Even if they did re-start, they won't be selling any to us folks. They will source overseas, surely.

 

[springfield art]

Guys, something is definitely going on-and insiders know it. I predict that
within a year we will all know it. The Boston Bombers bought large
pyrotechnics that are now harder to get -and they contained black
powder. Congress needs to hold the line on gun & ammo control
this spring, and block the bills for registration and ammo background
checks that are coming - until we can vote the rascals out in the 2022
midterms.

Hope you are right about the mid-terms.

 

[springfield art]

Just my 2 cents...........
I am extremely P.O.d with Hodgdon right now.........they control about 90% of the smokeless powder market; they bought Dupont, and control the company that makes Ramshot and Accurate powders. They have decided to quit manufacturing SR 4756 and SR 7625 several years ago......I used both powders quite a bit, for both handguns and shotshells, specifically bismuth loads in 12 and 16 gauge. They brought out "new" and "improved" powders, such as longshot, but DID NOT produce new data for said powders for bismuth, slugs, ect. If you check out there data, they have powders listed that they haven't made in YEARS (such as HS7), and of the "new" data that did produce, they have listed components that haven't been manufactured in years.
Now, not only are they not making GOEX anymore, and leaving black powder shooters in a lurch, but they've discontinued dupont's 800-X, which I used as a substitute for the aforementioned 4756. I'm glad I stocked up before all the panic buying........but I still would like "options".
I'm guessing that they figure everyone can just suffer and shoot pyrodex..........if you can find it. I will purchase some (what other choice do I have right now) and use it to punch paper and break clays, but when the targets have fur or feathers, I'll be using 'real' BP as long as I can. I don't care for pyrodex......I have had several bad experiences with it in cold weather, but now what other choice do I have?
I wish Alliant would step up to the plate..............they discontinued their BP substitute (I don't know what it was......I never used it; I just saw that it was discontinued on their website), and their reloading data becomes sparser and sparser every year. I have TONS of reloading data for nontoxic shot, but as I stated earlier, the components (specifically wads) are no longer being made.............Winchester, Remington, and Federal have all discontinued most of their lines (I've heard that Remington will no longer be selling reloading components).
I wish I could tell Hodgdon to go to hell, but they are pretty much the only game in town right now.................too bad, as their policies are just as bad as the antigunners/antihunters in congress.
As for stopping imports: Some of you may remember the Boston marathon bombing; there was a politician (cant remember who, exactly) that was pushing for a ban of sales of BP to private individuals, due to the "destructive" nature of BP, and was working on introducing a bill to do such. Someone asked him about reenactors and hunters, to which he basically replied that he didn't give a damn. He was quickly shot down when it was discovered that the bombers used powder obtained from legal fireworks to make the pressure cooker bomb. We've seen what a one sided congress can do to this country in short order......

I wish I could predict the future with some certainty, but with the world being the way it is right now, my crystal ball is kinda cloudy..........let's just hope and pray that God is a BP shooter.................................

Recall former gov. Cuomo saying, "you don't need ten bullets to kill a deer!"; that's all that politicians think shooting is about. You make some good points here, thanks.

 

[megasupermagnum]

800x was a double based powder. It was such a unique powder, there truly are no powders even close to replacing it. Now we just have to make something else pull double duty somehow. There's other powders that can be used for low pressure 16, 12, and 10 gauge loads, but nothing is as good as 800x.

I really don't understand why Hodgdon is doing this all of a sudden. I don't understand how they own so many companies either. It's getting to the point I can't even use their powders. I can easily replace 700x with Alliant American Select.

H110 is the only powder I haven't found a real good replacement for. 300-MP hasn't shown much promise to me.

 

[springfield art]

When I see all the powders available to reloaders in the reload manuals, I've sometimes thought, we often take for granted that all these amazing products are available freely to load, experiment, etc. (I'm not a reloader myself, requires too much patience!) Maybe that's why I like muzzleloading, no cartridge involved!

 

[CaptainKirk]

When I see all the powders available to reloaders in the reload manuals, I've sometimes thought, we often take for granted that all these amazing products are available freely to load, experiment, etc. (I'm not a reloader myself, requires too much patience!) Maybe that's why I like muzzleloading, no cartridge involved!

Problem is, none of those powders are available, because Hodgdon owns or controls the lion's share.

 

[megasupermagnum]

When I see all the powders available to reloaders in the reload manuals, I've sometimes thought, we often take for granted that all these amazing products are available freely to load, experiment, etc. (I'm not a reloader myself, requires too much patience!) Maybe that's why I like muzzleloading, no cartridge involved!

Unlike muzzleloading and blackpowder, smokeless has a reletively narrow window of usage. Real blackpowder is ***** proof. You can load a 10 gauge shotgun with FFFFg or Fg, even cannon grade, it all goes bang.

If you take a look a powder burn chart, it may appear there are a crazy number of smokeless powders. In some areas there are. You have to realize that the burn charts are not linear. There are huge gaps between some of those powders. Look at the following chart. #1 through #18 are all pretty much the same thing. They could mostly be used interchangeably (with their own data of course). #22 and #23 could not be more different. Trailboss is almost like a blackpowder subsitute. WST is a shotgun target powder, almost identical to #19 in performance. Basically #19 to #36 is pretty close together, but has some oddballs in there like #23. Once you hit #40, things take giant leaps. #40 and #46 are a world apart. #40 to #56 is a giant leap, and it is a gaping hole in powders. This is the area 800x, SR4756, SR4759 used to be. #51- longshot, doesn't even belong there. Longshot belongs in reality in that #19 to #36 slot. It's more of a progressive burning HS-6 than anything.

Then you will note I'm not even half way on the chart. #65 to #73 is the fast rifle powders. Some might consider SR4759 this area. Beyond that, #75 to #132 are not as different as you would believe. I might ruffle some feathers, but you can load just about any common rifle caliber, say 308 winchester, with any powder in that range and not be giving up much of anything. It might not be ideal, but I'd rather load 308 with RE 19, than I would a 20 gauge with titewad. Honestly, you could load a 308 with #154-Retumbo, and it would still be better than nothing.

My point is, more than half that list is rifle powders of very minor differences. Why so many exist, I have no idea. Everyone is apparently trying to squeek those last 25 fps from their rifle cartridges apparently.

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Not sure what this has to do with muzzleloading, but you need to look at their website again. Also, it is pretty easy to develop Bi loads from Pb loads, but there are explicit Bi loads for Longshot. I use them.

what is has to do with muzzleloading is this: they (Hodgdon) really don't give a damn about muzzleloading/blackpowder shooters who shoot traditional ( specifically flintlock) firearms; they are basically saying "screw you" to large section of shooters/sportsmen who have bought their products for YEARS.....and now, as stated by someone else, they own or control the lion's share of the powder market, so "take what we have to offer and piss off"..............
Also, YOU need to go back and look at the data.................there are loads using longshot, but all the loads listed for 20 gauge show wads that are no longer being offered; hell, the still offer reloading data for HS7, and that powder hasn't been made for something like 30 years.
.....and now that Remington is no longer selling reloading components, the SP16 wad will be going away..................so if you have a stash of them, better save them so you can use their crummy Longshot powder; it's not as good as other powders in their stable, but it's the one that they want to push, even if it is inferior to powders that they already control.

 

[megasupermagnum]

Mr. 16 gauge basically said what I'm trying to.

I've spent most of my life reloading shotgun, and like anyone, narrowed it down to handful of the best. Hodgdon in just a few years took away every single one except 700x, which I wouldn't be surprised if that goes too now. Components come and go, but to just pull out the rug like this is ridiculous. And it pertains to muzzleloaders in the same way. ALL of my good loads are Goex or Olde Eynsford of some kind. In one swoop, Every single Goex, and Olde Eynsford, gone just like that. It isn't like I can just go down to the store and choose from half a dozen black powders. Goex was the only one common in the USA.

Bluedot (Hercules/Alliant), is the only powder I have left now. Everything else I have to start from ground zero. Shotgun, Handgun, Muzzleloader. Rifle, no worries, there's 40 powders for every caliber. It just plain sucks. I guess I can only pray someone buys Goex, and I'm switching to mostly Alliant powders from now on.

Unlike Mr. 16 gauge, I think Hodgdon has done an adequate job on load data. Yes, they have failed to both come up with powders to replace the ones they are getting rid of, and the few new ones they have, they have not made good data for them. You can't really blame them for the collapse of the shotgun wad selection. I'm glad Hodgdon doesn't delete old data.

Alliant on the other hand has better powder now, but their data is horrible. They haven't come up with a new load in 10 years at least. If you look at their data from the early 2000's it's baffling how much they used to have. Every year they delete some, but never get more.

I'm just going to buy Alliant powder, and use my various reloading manuals. Due to the weird place shotgun components are in, substituting and swapping is the only way to load anymore. Forget the SP16. Claybusters wad works for lead shot at least. The worse loss is the SP10. That was the last lead shot plastic 10 gauge wad.

 

[William Lincoln]

Skeggs is on the money. Whenever there was a mishap at Hodgdon , windows and dishes would
spark claims from a mile around. Added to that are several ammo lawsuits that went after
the manufacturers. The law says you cannot do it, but lawyers for Sandy Hook victims
sued Remington(for a rifle used)and forced them into Bankruptcy. Several Democratic
ploys to hold Firearms and Ammo manufacturers liable for the actions of crazies
are being touted. The ATF rulemaking considers powder & primers same as ammunition.
The NMLRA has had to fight off several attempts to place muzzleloaders into
a regulated category. A new Lady there has helped a lot in that respect.
Very few forum members realize the Liability and Political-legal regulatory
risks powder manufacturers face. Skeggs faced a million-dollar price--well how
about no insurance available period. Looking to Canada and Europe,
there are jokers to the left and zombies to the right --
business is getting harder to do in the entire sporting arms genre. And, the
opinions and observations come from experience having captained some
businesses with hundreds of workers and huge risks. I feel Hodgdon did not
shut down Goex for lack of business--it was the entire constellation of
risks, maybe some unknown to us, and I think more are coming in the future.