The Great Powder Test:

[bob1961]

I wonder though, does every manufacturer use the same screen

I don't think they do.

if ya can get a screen from who or what ya shoot more of....or each powder...........bob

 

[fatboy]

You would think there would be a industry standard for size therefore there should be a stanardized screen but maybe not

 

[Old Ironsights]

Goex red can works for me as well. It would be interesting to know what criteria the various manufactuers use. Does the government regulate
the Fs or does each factory make it's own rules, such as, before we can call it 3F it must contain
x oz. of 3F. That rule has to exist somewhere.
You would't think so but maybe 4.9 is all the 3F required by Goex but I'd think at least 8 oz.of 3F should be required to call it 3F.

I don't think there is a Govt Standard (ghod I hope not... more standards = more expense + more ATF) but IIRC 3F should be somewhere around 1/32 nominal grain size. That's what it looks like the CalGraf screen uses anyway.

With so many of the mfgs running well over double the weight of 1/32 than Goex Red - including Goex itself in its "Premium"/Express offering, I think having only 4.9oz of 3F per Lb is pretty bad. I only hope that this can was an anomoly, but looking at some other Red Can, I don't think so.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Scary Post - lots of clickable thumbnails at the end:

The things I do for Muzzleloading science :shake:
Drive 41 mi to open Range, get GoexRed sunburn. :shocked2:
Have Range close at 4pm before I'm half done. :youcrazy:

Using 50gr loads 3F, no powder was appreciably more fouling/dirty than another. Goex Red Can had the strongest Sulfer smell.

Sifting brought both velocities and average deviations down.

Velocity & Deviation:

Using 5-shot strings, and cleaning between strings, I saw the following:

Swiss, Unsifted: AvVel: 1471.2 AvDev 21.20fps
Swiss, --Sifted: AvVel: 1412.0 AvDev 20.64fps
Express, Unsifted: AvVel: 1443.2 AvDev 53.80fps
Express, --Sifted: AvVel: 1337.6 AvDev 35.00fps
KIK, Unsifted: AvVel: 1423.2 AvDev 52.00fps
KIK, --Sifted: AvVel: 1310.4 AvDev 20.32fps
Goex Red, Unsifted: AvVel: 1427.0 AvDev 32.80fps
------------------------------------------------
Range closed. Gotta get there earlier Next time:
------------------------------------------------
Goex Red, --Sifted: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
Graf, Unsifted: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
Graf, --Sifted: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
-----------------------------------------------
10%4F: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
20%4F: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
30%4F: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
40%4F: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
50%4F: AvVel: ------ AvDev -----fps
-----------------------------------------------

Pics:

Unsifted Powder



Dusty Graf Powder Gun Cleaning Kit

Parameters:
One round, 50gr, OxYoke/Hornady PRB, Spit Patch (photo patch)
4rds, dry swab between, last round no swab, (photo Breech)
File Names(see in IE status bar): PowderName, US=unsifted, S=sifted

I totally hosed the Unsifted Swiss test because I forgot to dry-swab the bore after cleaning from a 10-shot 4F fouling string. Can you say "Black Mud"? I thought you could. :rotf:

Swiss

Express


KIK


Goex Red


Comparing Lock Fouling: Clean; Goex US; KIK S,US; Express S,US; Swiss S,US:

 

[thunderbear]

Thanks for posting. RESPECT :bow:
Please keep up the good work, enjoyable reading and pics.
A bit off topic: over here in teh land of Lefse & Ludefisk we only have Swiss available. At the cost of 600 kroner/ $93 per kilogram or $42 per lb.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Oh, BTW... First Dry Ball this weekend too. :redface:

Got it half rammed and noticed the Clear Plastic powder measure still full. OOPS.

Oh well, pull the Wedge, unscrew breech, pour in powder, reassemble, finish ramming & shoot. :grin:

I like my TC... :blah:

Oh, anybody know what that reddish/yellow discoloration around the touch hole might be? Only Goex Express left it.

 

[Slake]

very interesting...hmmmmm oh and welcome to the dry ball club...I'm in it

 

[Sharp Shooter]

I joined the dry ball club the 3rd time I ever loaded my muzzleloader. :shake:

That made me mad :cursing:

 

[Java Man]

I'm a long time memeber of the dry ball club, and continue to insure my membership for many years to come! Thank God for ball pullers. :bow:

Cool test Old Ironsights. Even though you have not completed the shooting, I noticed a pretty small std deviation for the Goex Red. Interesting :hmm:

Java Man

 

[Old Ironsights]

I'm a long time memeber of the dry ball club, and continue to insure my membership for many years to come! Thank God for ball pullers. :bow:

Popping the breech & pouring in powder is easier... :blah:

Cool test Old Ironsights. Even though you have not completed the shooting, I noticed a pretty small std deviation for the Goex Red. Interesting :hmm: Java Man

Yeah. Only Swiss (so far) had a lower AvDev for the unsifted powder.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

Do you have both KIK and Grafs? I can't remember if you ever got grafs powder. You will have to let me know what one is cleaner.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Do you have both KIK and Grafs? I can't remember if you ever got grafs powder. You will have to let me know what one is cleaner.

I have both... but they kicked me off the range before I had the chance to shoot the Graf.

Graf sifts out slightly better than KIK, oz by oz, though both are a dust hazard. See the pic of the graf sift. It is actually heavier in dust than kik. None of the other powders dusted the catch bin like that.

So far, using 5-shot 50gr strings (dry-patched between shots) no powder is significantly dirtier than another.

If 'yall will tell me the favorite (best?) way to rapidly foul a bore, I will try it for all 5 powders.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

What happened to the powder test?

 

[Rebel]

Kinda fizzled out. :grin:

 

[Old Ironsights]

Kinda fizzled out. :grin:

Flash in the pan... :blah:

Sorry, I don't have regular access to a Range where I can set up the chrony. When I've got a spare nice weekend to drive the hour or so to the one range I can do the testing on, I will.

Thanks for the continued interest tho.. :thumbsup:

 

[TXCELLENT1]

I have a question for Old Ironsights. When you were screening the powder for your test, you made mention that you doubled screened the powder and then weighed the results. Just exactly what do you mean by double screening the powder?
Per the screening instructions, we are to screen until little or no powder falls from the screen. I'm curious as to how you screened the powder?
Tom

 

[Old Ironsights]

I used Cal-Graf "Master Screen" set, which is a wood and brass screen cylinder that permits 4F & smaller to excape the cylinder into a catch pan.

By "double sifting" I mean that I ran each batch through a 3F "hold" screen first then a 2F "hold" screen to catch any big chunks.

I didn't really expect any 2F from my cans of 3F, but I did it to ensure absolute regularity of grain size for load testing.

I'm hoping that I will get a ey-card to our local club range inn July so I don't have to find a day when I can drive down-state to finish the test.

 

[TXCELLENT1]

I too bought the same screens as you have. How many revolutions did you make to ensure that you had complete powder size uniformity. I took the instructions quite literally and found that it was border line exaustive. I am quite sure that my 3F contains less than 3 or 4 percent 4F and fines. If I had to guess, I would say that my Swiss 3F contained 60% 4F to 40% 3F if not a higher percentage going to 4F. Go Figger. I did not weigh the results but that is my best guess. I also found that the resultive 4F is courser than the Goex 4F that I am use to.
Do you think that a certain percentage of 3F and fines are necessary for PRB shooting? I would think that the BPC shooters would strive for 100 percent 3F uniformity. Do you agree? Tom

 

[paulvallandigham]

Uniformity is the key to all consecutive placement of rounds on target, so you are correct. The reason for screening powder is for the very thing you have found. One can, or one brand of powder you get can have an incredible amount of powder that is undersized, while another has very little. Until you screen, you can't know. If you follow the instructions each time, you will get uniform screening. You could buy a screen for 4Fg powder, but what would be the point? Just use the screened fines from your 3F powder for priming. If you must, you can weigh it on a powder scale to determine how much you get from the screening process. There are 7000 grains to the pound, which makes it 437.5 grains to the ounce.

 

[TXCELLENT1]

Hi Paul, Thanks for the responce. I am particularly interested in how many revs Old Ironsights made to come uo with his weighed anlaysis on Swiss 3F. He found ii.3 oz. 3F and 4 oz. 4F and fines. My results while not weighed are not even close. Very curious.
Is it possible to have an ignition problem with very little 4F and fines in the screened 3F compared to what I'm use to? Something is going on and I'm trying to get a grip on it. Tom