The India-made Untouchables

[bpd303]

I looked at those too. Tags on them said Loyalist Arms. Enough for me, I passed and bought the J.T. Phillips double flintlock 16ga shotgun instead.

 

[Dean2]

I looked at those too. Tags on them said Loyalist Arms. Enough for me, I passed and bought the J.T. Phillips double flintlock 16ga shotgun instead.

Loyalists arms is a reputable Canadian dealer. They sell a ton of merchandise into the U.S. to a wide array of purchasers. They produce their own guns and they sell Pedersoli and many other high end muzzle loaders. They also sell a lot of Indian made, non-proofed guns for pirate gigs, movie props, reenacting, firing blanks etc and will declare which are Indian made. If the fellow you are talking to won't fess up I would never do any kind of business with him either.

 

[Alden]

I would certainly trust and recommend Loyalist for India made guns -- great folk. Middlesex too; I KNOW Pete there knows guns and locks, checks and tunes them before they ship, but I don't like that they started to sell on internet auction sites without disclosing the origin.

Veteran member here does the latter too now and used to, at least, hide the origin.

Would not buy from Military Heritage/Discriminating General in Canada -- I am convinced they resell India made "seconds," rejects.

 

[Zonie]

I guess "seconds" is one way of describing some of the things made in India.
Just saying "made at a poor manufacturer" would be more accurate.

As some here know, I ride a Royal Enfield. It's made in India.
Royal Enfield motorcycles have been manufactured in India for almost 60 years. Over the years, they have improved it over the originals that were made in England.

After 3 years of ownership I can say it has been well made and 100 percent dependable. Moreso than the new BMW I bought in the late '70's.

The man who runs the company that imports these motorcycles sells a number of Indian made aftermarket parts for them but before importing them he personally visits the manufacturer and examines their products and production methods.

Very few of the places that make these aftermarket parts meet his standards. Many are little more than backroom shops with absolutely no Quality Control at all.
Although these places could produce the number of parts he is looking to import he refuses to buy from them.

I'm not saying that all of the things made in India are poor.

There are many very modern companies with high tech equipment and good Quality Control there.
Their prices are higher but their products are very good.

 

[okawbow]

A couple years ago, I bought a French Infantry musket from Veterans arms. It cost 1/2 the price of an Italian made musket. I only wanted something to demonstrate to the grandkids, what a couple of their 5x grandfathers might have used in the AWI. It works just fine for that purpose.

Veteran Arms hardened the frizzen and tuned the lock; which sparks and functions great. I inspected the barrel for flaws, and proofed it with 200 grs 2f, and 2 oz shot, twice, and found no deformation I could measure. The stock came looking ok, but I eventually re shaped it a little, and stained and varnished it. I rust aged the metal, as I didn't like the too polished look.

It's not a perfect repro, but neither are the other commercial muskets. It passes for an authentic musket for 99% of those who will see it.

I've shot ball and shot over 100 times with it, and it shoots good groups with ball, and not so good with shot. I've even shot a deer with it, and made a clean, quick kill.

P7280382 by okawbow, on Flickr

P7280384 by okawbow, on Flickr

P7280387 by okawbow, on Flickr

I suspect the quality is somewhat better than years past, at least from Veteran arms. If you want top quality; pay 4x or more the price for a custom musket. If you want commercial quality; pay 2x as much for an Italian gun. For re-enacting, and light use; I think the better sellers of the Indian guns can provide a usable alternative, if you are willing to do a little work yourself.

 

[bourquewildblue.net]

"Most doing 18C stuff here in the UK use India made. Pedersolis are considered to be Ferraris!"

In my younger days my first car was an Austin Healy 3000 followed by a '64 XKE 3.8 ragtop. Never owned an Italian auto but based on my personal experience with Pedersoli, if Ferraris are manufactured to the same quality standard as their firearms, you couldn't give me one.
This Pedersoli myth needs to be busted. I would post bore photos now, but I plan to try and negotiate an exchange of the '61 Springfield that I'm stuck with. If they won't swap it for a '58 Enfield then you can be sure I will. Then I'll post an add for the '61 poc that I'll want to dump.

 

[bourquewildblue.net]

"I am not a fan of India-made guns -- they are, IMO, a grade lower than their European imports and probably most custom-made guns."
"I recently bought one of those early 18th C. .69 "Cookson" New England doglock fowlers with a 51" barrel I'd eyed for years. Needed an hour's work outta the box to get the lock to work at all and then ultimately the overall action that performs very well indeed now despite the frizzen screw still being bent just a tad. Sure, it's a little crude, ugly wood filler making up for imperfect carpentry for example, in some respects but it's OK for what it is and the price... luckily they don't charge by the pound. My call. But is it truly safe within reasonable limits?"

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I am also interested in this firearm and was considering it for an X-mas purchase this year. Your report was disturbing and I am now re-evaluating Indian manufacturing quality.

My personal experience with Indian manfacturing quality has been exactly opposite. Admittedly, this experience concerns Indian immigrants that have worked for me at two separate manufacturers.
At the first I was Plant Manger for a company that built computer cable assemblies. My head foreman was Indian and two of his sisters were assemblers on the shop floor. They were 3 of the 5 BEST workers I've ever had, both in quality and production efficiency. Their "pride of workmanship" far surpassed all our other American employees. The second instance was a manufacturing test engineer that worked for me on the MX missile launch computer (a "very large caliber" weapon). Again, his technical skill, competence and dedicate was worthy of praise.

Indian manufacturing quality aside, I searched the forum for any experience with locks built from castings (as in Rifle Shoppe parts) versus forgings (as in Indian repro's). Perhaps this might warrant a new thread. Based on my experience running a sizable machine shop. I would tend to prefer forgings to castings in many applications. Any comments?

 

[Claude Mathis]

My personal experience with Indian manfacturing quality has been exactly opposite. Admittedly, this experience concerns Indian immigrants that have worked for me at two separate manufacturers.
At the first I was Plant Manger for a company that built computer cable assemblies. My head foreman was Indian and two of his sisters were assemblers on the shop floor. They were 3 of the 5 BEST workers I've ever had, both in quality and production efficiency. Their "pride of workmanship" far surpassed all our other American employees. The second instance was a manufacturing test engineer that worked for me on the MX missile launch computer (a "very large caliber" weapon). Again, his technical skill, competence and dedicate was worthy of praise.

Indian immigrants working in the US aren't the issue and that's unrelated to the manufacturing that takes place in India. IMO

 

[bourquewildblue.net]

"Indian immigrants working in the US aren't the issue and that's unrelated to the manufacturing that takes place in India. IMO"

That's why I said "admittedly". They were born there. They grew up there. I'm merely commenting on a cultural work ethic that, at that time, I found lacking in this country as it concerns manufacturing. I'm a manufacturing guy, born and bred. Nothing would please me more than to see a manufacturing rebirth in this country. I grew up in CT driving by the Colt Onion Dome every day. I WANT to buy American firearms. I PREFER to buy American firearms. My Great Great Grandfather carried a Whitneyville '61 in the 23rd CT Vol.

I'm just saying, if the Indian products are inferior, please show me why. I'll be posting photographic examples and documented evidence of Italian deceit in their manufacturing methods, UNLESS they agree to exchange for an alternate firearm. IF they do then I will agree that they stand by the quality of their products. Otherwise, I will of course post the photos and documentation here.

 

[Alden]

Yankee;
The work the lock needed took a while but was not serious. That'll sound funny, but...

The heel of the frizzen was the reason the gun would not work. It was long because it was square and the frizzen would not open fully when fired but would hang up half way. Dremel tool just rounding the heel fixed that. The feather spring was too strong too. Dremel tool. The geometry of the fly needed a small adjustment IIRC. Hand filed I think. The main spring was, and is still a little, too strong. Dremel tool.

Now it has a little too longish, mushyish, heavyish, though consistent trigger pull (I'm used to pretty damn good triggers) but it IS a fowler, and it sparks like the sun. All the parts seemed of high carbon content I tell you, a man who can probably read sparks off a grinding wheel even better than I. Finesse is not the Indian's strong suit.

 

[54ball]

Please be patient, there is a tie in here.

Head injuries in WW1...

I forget the exact year, 1915 or 16. This was the year new steel helmets were issued to the French and British troops. This was also the same year that the Germans started using the Stahlhelm.

Statistics show that after the adoption of the steel helmet head injuries from minor to severe significantly increased.

Going by statistics alone, they would show the use of steel helmets actually caused more head injuries.

The truth of the matter is the severe head injuries with helmets would have been KIA. Conversely the minor injuries would have been severe or even KIA without the steel helmet.

This is to show how information or data can be twisted and misinterpreted if all the variables are not considered.

Here are some variables that may need to be considered concerning India Guns or the India gun scare.

Price...

This variable has nothing to do with quality. This is more about experience level,
accessibility and attitude.
Simply put, many India guns are in use by entry level individuals and units inexperienced in black powder arms.
A entry level individual or unit may stress performance over safety.
The question that needs to be asked is. Under the same conditions, would the more expensive guns fail?

Accessibility...

There are more options in the India Guns, for example The First and the Third Model Brown Bess. Except for original or custom made there's no game in town other than these.
Since they are affordable there is simply more of them. That means more could be put in a situation where any musket would fail.

Attitude...

Since India Guns are "not as good" many may be treated as such. "It's just a ole cheapo India gun, so it's not worthy of proper maintenance.

Do you think the Sgt. who allegedly triple charged a recruit's 53 India Enfield that failed when the charge finally went off, would have done the same to a "priceless" original?

Out right dishonesty, I'm not going to admit I did something stupid that could get me thrown out of the unit or least a good thrashing,so it was the gun's fault.

The last point on this is many reenactors simply are not gun people, they are actors playing a part so the musket is just a prop that's never cleaned.

The big question like the 300lb grit eating Gorilla in the room, that everybody notices but nobody talks about is.

Do some of the "safe" firing methods practiced by reenactors under the right conditions, set up these failures regardless of who made the gun?

If so what are they? Can they be corrected? If it can be corrected, could the correction cause and even grater threat to life and limb?

There is a theory that blank loads with no ball or wadding can be potentially dangerous. The theory is a double shock wave much like a barrel obstruction.
Simply put, on ignition some of the powder is blown up the barrel where it ignites causing the double shock wave. This can really be exacerbated in a percussion gun's closed system. The power of the cap actually pushes the charge or a portion of the powder only charge up the barrel where it ignites. A wet or dirty gun could play a role in this too, per the theory.

Another variable along the same lines, is the use of duplex BP or pure substitute loads used as powder only blanks. Some theorize their use in this fashion is unknown and potentially dangerous as there have been failures with these types of powder.

I'm no fan of India guns but fair is fair.

 

[TNGhost]

Just my 2 cents, but the coordinated trashing of anything on the web, to me anyway, is suspect and often turns out to be self serving.

Given our litigious society, one would think there would be no one willing to risk selling these Indian guns if they were that dangerous.

I was recently on the premises of one of the larger suppliers of our BP hobby, handled one of the offending Indian pieces and asked the proprietor about them. They were obviously not as sleek and stylish as the Italian guns, but then a Ford is not as sleek and stylish as a Ferrari to borrow an analogy from King of Derby. More to the point, I was assured by, what to me was a knowledgeable professional, that they were safe and reliable, not the most beautiful, but definitely functional. He had no problems disclosing their origin either.

At any period of history, there have been functional guns, and those of the gentry. Both have their place. I enjoy fine arms as much as anyone, but I am a shooter first and not a "firearms snob" so function always tops my list, your opinion may differ.

Finally, it seems that many entry level avenues into the shooting sports are disappearing or under attack. The high price of new BP guns and the shortage of .22 ammunition and ammunition components (including percussion caps) are but a couple of examples.

Anything that can be done to bring more folks into our sport is a good thing, and lowering the price of admission is always one that works.
Snobbery, profiteering and other selfishnesses don't.

Those businesses that would seek to limit accessibility to firearms, ammunition and accessories to stifle competition, for profit, are of the same ilk as those that buckled to the 90's bans and took advantage of recent panics to pad their bottom line.

 

[Rifleman1776]

As you know, I have never gotten much into the quality issue. My issue with India made products is the child, and adult slavery used in manufacturing in that country.
I prefer buying American made products whenever possible, especially guns. But, I don't have a problem buying from those we have long dealt with especially the European countries. We have a long tradition of buying English, Belgium, German, etc. guns in America.
But, India quality should rightly be carefully examined before buying. A friend of mine was once a tractor dealer. He bought a line of India made tractors for the lower price market. They were so horribly made it almost put him out of business to satisfy customers. e.g. the casting had numerous voids that literally would not hold oil.

 

[TNGhost]

I seem to recall, not that many years ago, the Japanese reproductions were touted as garbage by many, yet now many are highly sought after for use and even command a premium in some circles.

My best guess is there are those in India who prefer not to purchase U.S. goods due to our "war mongering incursions" into their continent, our relationship with their neighbor or our position on global warming. Products are products, politics are politics. A look at Italy's affairs could lead to a number of conciensious objections to their products as well, I'm sure.

To me any firearms purchase should be carefully scrutinized as to quality regardless of origin. We are fortunate to be able to scrutinize as many here as we do, a fortune which hopefully will continue.

 

[Artificer]

There is a theory that blank loads with no ball or wadding can be potentially dangerous. The theory is a double shock wave much like a barrel obstruction.

Simply put, on ignition some of the powder is blown up the barrel where it ignites causing the double shock wave. This can really be exacerbated in a percussion gun's closed system. The power of the cap actually pushes the charge or a portion of the powder only charge up the barrel where it ignites. A wet or dirty gun could play a role in this too, per the theory.

First, I enjoyed reading your thought provoking post. Thank you.

With almost 8 active years of extensive re-enacting of the WBTS here in Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania with Percussion Muskets and Revolvers; I never heard of the double shock wave theory. I can't begin to count the number of blank rounds I saw or were fired at all the Reenactments I attended and heard about.

Of my 26 years in the Marine Corps, I spent almost all my time in the Ordnance Field, though not Explosives Ordnance Disposal. So I am not an expert by any means on explosives. Having stated that, I still have to seriously question this theory.

The majority of explosive force or gas pressure does follow the path of least resistance. As the gas pressure travels down the bore from the breech, it loses force even as it drives a bullet. In modern guns with bullets, breech pressure can be 55,000 PSI at the breech and down to 18,000 PSI by the time the gas reaches a gas port in a semi or fully automatic rifle.

Now with Black Powder, the burn rate is so fast it is known as an explosion rather than a burn in modern powder. Some BP near the breech of a muzzleloader will be driven forward before it ignites and if there is enough black powder, unburned grains will be blown out the bore after the patched ball. So some BP fired in a barrel, with nothing but BP in it, will ignite further down the bore than near the breech. The resulting explosive gas force of those previously unburned grains of powder will TRY to expand equally in all directions as they ignite. The gas expansion is rebounded by the interior walls of the barrel, by the higher force of gas pressure nearer the breech and finally against the open air in the open side of the barrel bore. So yes, the unburned powder that ignites further down the barrel would set up some shock waves going backwards, towards the interior walls of the barrel and towards the open air. However, I just do not see how those much more miniscule shock waves of gas pressure could cause damage unless the walls of the barrel were not solid or had some sort of inclusion or other metallurgical weakness. After all, the worst of the gas pressure shock wave in a Percussion gun is going against the breech, the barrel walls, and the vent hole through the cone/nipple - and to a lesser extent pushing a bullet or object down a barrel.

So while I can certainly believe powder blown further down a barrel will cause miniscule shock waves when it ignites, I just don't see how it would mean anything in a barrel that is sound and made of the right material for a gun barrel.

Or am I missing something?

Gus

 

[54ball]

Gus,
The way I understand it is this, a barrel obstruction. The secondary explosion acts as a barrel obstruction.

A simplistic explanation would be a shell exploding in a cannon barrel. The severity of the blast also includes the propellant charge as it has no where to go due to the explosion blocking the path of least resistance.

I admit this is a scenario where things have to fall into place just right. That's why it's a very rare occurrence. An extremely dirty or even clean but wet and/or multiple charges under certain conditions may be the starting point.

For example, lets take the India Bess explosion a few years back. The failure point was between the breech an the entry pipe. A good many of the failures I have seen photos of are in that same area.

One of the possible explanations was the gun was very dirty, multi charged and a portion of the powder clumped together mid bore causing an obstruction. I'm not convinced.

scenario...

1.The gun is very dirty or wet/oily enough to foul the first charge.
2. As this is volley fire the shooter does not realize this, so multiple charges are put over the fouled charge.
3. After several flashes the powder does ignite but the power is retarded due to moisture or fouling.
4. Since there is no wadding or ball, the powder column starts up the barrel following the least resistance.
5. At this instant the unfouled powder ignites. The shock wave of both explosions working against one another overcome the strength of the barrel.

another related scenario
Many units will ram the first cartridge. Lets say that the gun was loaded with paper on top of the first charge.
Multiple charges are loaded on top of this.
The gun fires, but there is a slight delay due to the paper wad between the charges. When the powder ignites above the paper, the barrel fails due to the second explosion blocking the path of least resistance.

This is just a hypothesis.

 

[jamesthomas]

I get a 404 file not found code for this article :idunno: .

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Conjecture:

Simply put, many India guns are in use by entry level individuals and units inexperienced in black powder arms. A entry level individual or unit may stress performance over safety.
The question that needs to be asked is. Under the same conditions, would the more expensive guns fail?

Gonna throw a half-yellow flag here

Most of the India made guns are NOT used by newbies... you might argue that the majority of newbies use India made flintlocks in Rev War reenactment, but most of the India made muskets are used by folks who are veterans, and some of us (like me) got rid of our Pedersoli Bess, obtained an India made bess with proper hardware, and pocketed the difference.

The reason that I know this is the lack of new recruits to equal the use of the India made Bess's in the ranks. If the India guns were being used solely by the recruits then we'd have a rapidly growing section of the BP hobby.

We don't.


The Bess musket barrel failure is attributed not to simple, blank firing. A mistake has crept into the loading and firing procedure amont many AWI reenactors.

What you are supposed to do when you have a misfire but you did have the pan flash... the shooter should half-cock the musket, prick the touch hole, feel for the powder crunching, reprime from a new cartridge (and dump the remaining contents on the ground), close the frizzen, cock the musket, and attempt to fire.

What reenactors often do, is to dump the contents of the musket barrel on the ground, fail to prick the touch hole, reprime and reload the blank, and then try to fire. Pedersoli or Indian made, no difference in this. AND... This is wrong.

The blown barrel had two misfires prior to it's failure. The owner dumped the barrel, and started "from scratch", twice, and the third time he primed and loaded, the musket went off, and the barrel split.

The theory is that his first two misfires and dumps coated the barrel with some powder, beyond the breech (in fact the breech stayed put but the barrel was split -iirc- 12" from the touch hole, forward). This gunpowder coating, which may have included some clumping about 12" above the touch hole, cause an over pressure when the blank fired on the third try, and the expaning gases moved forward, encountering the powder deposited beyond the breech, and igniting the powder stuck part way up the barrel, causing an over pressure at a place where the barrel is thin.

That's the theory.

I only called a "half-yellow" flag as the final question, would a Pedersoli or Japanese barrel fail if this was repeated... I think the answer would be yes.

FYI this was reported on The High Road forum under black powder, where an individual actually tested a large number of barrels by using established, European proof house loads. I did not note his screen name, sorry. As such this may not qualify as credible or not:
7/16/2013
To date in the proofing experiment I have been running the results are as follows

We have tested the following barrels using the old English standard of a triple charge double ball load.

The barrels are measured at room temperature with a micrometer at 3" intervals starting at the breech face.

We have tested various barrels from a number of makers and national origins with only 2 failures out of almost 200 barrels.

Neither of the barrels that failed was Indian.

One was an unmarked straight octagon barrel that blew out it's breech plug.

The other one was an Armisport Enfield barrel that split just ahead of the breech. in fairness both of the failures were on used barrels that had been volunteered for this test and they were both pretty badly neglected.

In the case of both failures, neglect and corrosion appear to be the major cause of the failures


I saved this simply because it showed that a previously proofed (Armi Sport is Italian proofed) barrel when neglected was found to be less safe than an India made barrel.

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

I get a 404 file not found code for this article :idunno: .

Try this one. http://3rdregimentanv.com/unsafe_firearms.html

 

[Billnpatti]

I don't know :idunno: So many folks on the forum argue that the India made guns are quite safe. I can't say. I have never experienced a failure with an India made gun simply because I have never owned an India made gun and have never fired one. So, they may be safe to shoot with reasonable charges and when properly maintained. I'll wave the white flag on that point :surrender: because I simply don't know. But, what I do know is that upon close inspection of more than one of the India made guns, I am not impressed with the quality. They look cheaply made. Oh, like I say, if you squint your eyes just right and stand far enough away, they may look okay but when I hold one in my hands and look closely at it the word "junk" comes to mind. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my impression. Naw, those that want them can have them, I'll be able to live my life without one in my gun safe. Just sayin'.... :hatsoff: