The load was 200 grains of Goex 2F

[Rat Trapper]

Last month I was able to make a detour and stop at Friendship Ind during lore of the Laughery. since it was my first trip there walked around the grounds. Over on the bench rest range ran into a guy shooting a heavy bench cap lock rifle in 54 caliber. We thought his rifle was cracking a little, and we knew why when he told us his load was 200 grains of Goex 2F. His rifle weighted 40 pounds so even with that load there wasn't any recoil. We were pressed for time, as I would have liked to see his groups as he was shooting 200 yards. Was able to pick up some more Goex powder and it was worth stopping.

 

[roundball]

We thought his rifle was cracking a little, and we knew why when he told us his load was 200 grains of Goex 2F.

He apparently hasn't spent any time here on the MLF...muzzleloader barrels aren't supposed to be able to burn more than about 70 grns so all the rest of his powder charge was being wasted :wink:

 

[nchawkeye]

Years ago, when I built my .54 I hunted with 120grs of FFF Goex...As the years have have passed my loads have been reduced, now I'm shooting 80grs of FFF...


But...I ain't shooting out to 200 yards either...

 

[Little Wattsy]

We thought his rifle was cracking a little, and we knew why when he told us his load was 200 grains of Goex 2F.

He apparently hasn't spent any time here on the MLF...muzzleloader barrels aren't supposed to be able to burn more than about 70 grns so all the rest of his powder charge was being wasted :wink:

TRUE! If he were to place a sheet (or some snow) out front there he would have 130 grains of unburnt powder that he could use next time. :haha:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Roundball, there is a bench rest muzzleloader club near Shartlesville PA. 200 grains isn't that big a deal in an underhammer 62 caliber 50 to 80 lb rifle with a 60 inch barrel. Lots more bore to burn that powder. Those guys shoot clover leafs at 300 yds. And they do indeed crack when they go off. Some of them use winches attached to the rafters to lift the guns. They also have what looks like small sleds attached to the underside of the muzzle to set on the front of the rest. So any comparison between your 32 inch huntin gun and those is like comparing cherry bomb to a nuclear bomb. Those barrels are twice the length of yours.

Ever shoot one of those Bertha's and you will understand.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Roundball, there is a bench rest muzzleloader club near Shartlesville PA. 200 grains isn't that big a deal in an underhammer 62 caliber 50 to 80 lb rifle with a 60 inch barrel. Lots more bore to burn that powder. Those guys shoot clover leafs at 300 yds. And they do indeed crack when they go off. Some of them use winches attached to the rafters to lift the guns. They also have what looks like small sleds attached to the underside of the muzzle to set on the front of the rest. So any comparison between your 32 inch huntin gun and those is like comparing cherry bomb to a nuclear bomb. Those barrels are twice the length of yours.

Ever shoot one of those Bertha's and you will understand.

Before I call :bull: I'd like to see a picture of one of those 80 pounders with the 60" barrel. Preferably a wide angle shot showing three or four guys with them so I can see that its not just some one of a kind backyard project...Wouldnt mind seein a pic of that 300 yard cloverleaf too.

Please :wink:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Wattsy, it is the Blue Mountain Muzzleloader Club in Shartlesville and all of those guns are false muzzle behemoths. I just checked for a web site and couldn't find one, but the NMLRA Pa territorials are held there. Club is in existence since the 1930's. Been there to watch a few times over the years. Those guns are all back yard projects, custom made items. Barrels are considered shot out after about 400 to 500 shots. Chuck Dixon of Dixon's Gun Maker's Fair fame won at friendship years back with such a gun.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Wattsy, it is the Blue Mountain Muzzleloader Club in Shartlesville and all of those guns are false muzzle behemoths. I just checked for a web site and couldn't find one, but the NMLRA Pa territorials are held there. Club is in existence since the 1930's. Been there to watch a few times over the years. Those guns are all back yard projects, custom made items. Barrels are considered shot out after about 400 to 500 shots. Chuck Dixon of Dixon's Gun Maker's Fair fame won at friendship years back with such a gun.

I understand some of the "bench guns" are HEAVY...BUT 80 lbs? Ill wait for the picture....Now I must wonder about a barrel that is "shot out" after 500 rounds and yet is quality enough to "clover leaf" at 300 yrds.? :hmm:
Reminds me a bit of "Mulberry St"

 

[Zonie]

Everybody knows MORE is BETTER don't they? :hmm:

 

[longcruise]

He apparently hasn't spent any time here on the MLF...muzzleloader barrels aren't supposed to be able to burn more than about 70 grns so all the rest of his powder charge was being wasted

I din't know the "formula" off hand, but maybe they are 16' barrels?

 

Wattsy,
I have watched some of the big boys playing and and I'd bet a pound of powder that they know what they are doing and it isn't throwing powder away!
Mark

 

[ebiggs1]

Roundball, what are you doing next weekend? I’ll stop by with my scoop shovel and pick you up. You do suppose the range will let us pick up all that unburnt powder on the ground? Kinda like golf courses and used golf balls?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Did the man use a false muzzle to load the gun? If so, you were probably down on the Slug Gun end of the firing line. Slug guns shoot large caliber bullets, and require large amounts of powder to push them out. The heavy bullets create very high pressures, and the lag time caused by the inertia of the heavy bullet allows more powder to burn in the barrel.

The Crack you heard may be powder burning outside the muzzle, indicating that he was putting more powder down his barrel than will burn in it, even shooting bullets. The sonic "boom" heard at the muzzle is caused by rapidly expanding air, returning and crashing into its self behind the bullet after it leaves. That is why you still get a Noise even with subsonic loads, as the gases expand faster than the bullet is traveling out the muzzle. If you are 50 yards down range from the shooter, and his bullet goes near you, you may hear a crack, which represents the speed of the bullet being faster than the speed of sound. Having been shot at, with bullets whizzing closely over-head, I don't recommend the experience to you, or others. Somethings you need to take things as fact, on someone else's word.

Just because they are shooting slugs, doesn't mean they have the knowledge of the ages. If it works for him, I am happy for the guy. It would be interesting to see if his name shows up as a match winner. The Champion shooters I know would be smiling, too.

 

[bkovire]

google "chunk rifles" you will be amazed! too many sites to list. :thumbsup:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The guns at Blue Mountain were a little different than the chunk guns I have seen. Both big and heavy, but those bench rest guns all had false muzzles and very expensive reciever sights.
I remember that one shooter laid two strips of paper across the false muzzle like an "x" before he started the bullet. Only time I ever saw that.

They also had something they called "sealed ignition". A cap would screw down on top over the percussion cap and nipple. I suppose to keep the gases from escaping out the nipple. from what I gathered from listening, all the actions were made by one or two guys. There were perhaps 15 shooters at the last bench rest match I saw there.

It was clearly a group of guys with very specialized guns.

the few over log guns I have seen didn't have false muzzles and were generally side locks with massive barrels, but not as long as those guys at Blue Mtn.

(incidentally, on Sharpshooters, on the History channel, they showed a flinter with a ten foot barrel. It was a wall gun and looked to be about a one inch bore)


Hey Wattsy, here is a link to a picture of a very similar but shorter gun than those used at Blue Mtn. http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=3010&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

 

[Dave K]

I have heard this many times of unburnt powder on the snow or in a sheet, because it didn't burn in the barrel. I just want to know if it is actually unburnt powder or just carbon. Has anyone ever collected this and found it to be truly unburnt powder? Inguiring minds need to know. :grin:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

It is a combination of carbon and unburned powder and ash. Some guys have actually tested it and were able to light the residue collected.

Even when I hunt I keep my loads moderate so there ins't much thrown out other than carbon and ash. I know when I worked at an indoor range we swept lots of unburned smokeless off the floor, in fact we had to sweep every few hours. I think Paul V did some firing and collected the particles that fell in front of the gun. I am going to try it with a pistol, A friend of mine has a ten foot section of 3 foot diameter concrete pipe. I'll fire through that and gather the residue that falls to the bottom.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I did the testing years ago with a friend, Raymond Hutcherson. We both doubted that unburned powder would leave the barrel- having both observed the gun flash in front of the muzzle and sparks trailing to the ground.

I put a DB bed sheet on the ground, in front of the bench and barrel's muzzle, held down with rocks and bricks. The gun was fired over the white sheet. We then removed the rocks, carefully folded the sheet in half to HOLD the residue, and then lifted the sheet up so that we could pour the contents out in to a metal ashtray that had been wiped out before the test.

Ray was a chain smoker, so He volunteered to light the Pile of stuff we piled together in the ashtray, using a pocketknife blade to push and scrape the bits together. I REPEAT, neither of us was expecting the pile to ignite, much less burn like powder.

We were both AMAZED, then, when it not only ignited from applying Ray's cigarette to the pile, but that it went " Poof" in our faces! I think we both said words to the effect of, " HOLY S$%t!" That is how surprised we are with what happened.

My best memory( this happened back in the late 1970s) is that the particles we got off the sheet were light brown in color, NOT BLACK, or at least a large part of them were. That is why I was not expecting anything to happen when Ray touched off the small pile with his cigarette. Ray took the whole experiment much calmer than I did. We laughed about the results, but his attitude was that we just report the test results to the members, and be a bit more careful about letting people smoke near the firing line after the range is closed. :idunno: :thumbsup:

Every civilization learns what it needs to know to survive. In time, lessons learned are forgotten. Then a new generation is forced to relearn old truths.

I found this to be true about Tracking- visually reading Tracks and "sign" of man and animals. I have been doing it for more than 50 years, learning with every new set of tracks I follow. But, even among hunters, who should know better, IMHO, I am considered " Odd" for my ability and interest. Oh, they don't mind having me around when they need to track down a wounded deer- but otherwise, I make them a bit nervous. They realize I see things and understand things that they don't.

Its been that way with Tracker/Scouts down through the ages.

Perhaps its time for someone younger to do this simple powder test, again.

 

[skunkskinner]

Paul, you forgot to mention the caliber, barrel length and amount of powder.

 

[fitter]

slug gun.