The load was 200 grains of Goex 2F

[Zoar]

Lord have mercy! What on earth would you even need one of those for?

 

Zoar,
If for no other reason than "just because".
Mark

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There was a fellow up near Shartlesville PA that ran a tourist junk store called Tecumseh's Trading post. Back in the 1970's he would sit at a picnic table/bench rest along a line cut along the top of a mountain. He had distance marks painted on rocks and stumps and tried to shoot deer at really long distances. saw his gun in his shop a few times. Heard him brag about his shots. Don't know if he was BSing or not. There ar guys who try to catch 10 lb fish on 2 lb test line. There's a few crazies who go the opposite direction and try to kill rabbits with howitzers.

 

[Tom Compton]

Need has nothing to do with it. What do you or I "need" a traditional ML for? Or a classic car or a Harley.

The bench rest shooters are interested in poking holes in paper better than their competition.

 

[Rat Trapper]

:thumbsup:


It is not about needing, it's all about wanting!

 

[cptleo1]

We thought his rifle was cracking a little, and we knew why when he told us his load was 200 grains of Goex 2F.

He apparently hasn't spent any time here on the MLF...muzzleloader barrels aren't supposed to be able to burn more than about 70 grns so all the rest of his powder charge was being wasted :wink:

I know that's the theory

I have two railroad tie plates (the thing the railroad track sits on) hanging from chains.

One at 50yd, one at 100.

With my .54 GPR my std load was 85gr, When I put a peep sight on it I could actually hit things at 100yds, so I bumped the load to 105gr.

I am here to tell you the 105 load hits the plate A LOT HARDER.

I got an invite to go on a spring Griz hunt in Alaska so I built a .62 Jaeger, found a goood wheel weight rb load at 90gr

- Talked to a Canadian ML moose hunter who informed me I was fixin to get myself killed.

He suggested 140 grs of FF, I got up to 135 and got scared, that and the recoil was getting out of hand.

I hit the 50yd plate so hard it broke one of the chains.

Now I am not saying that there wasn't a trail of unburned powder like a fuse leading up to the plate, but, that load was/is the hardest hitting ML load I have ever seen.

His pet moose/bear gun was a 4 bore with I believe 190 grs or more.

Seems to me those Pacific underhammers they were making a few years back used a starting load of 160 in a .58.

I don't know about the math and formulas as some do.

But I do know how loud the gong rings when you hit it and more powder over 75grs makes the gong ring a lot louder.

Not very scientific, but, hang a piece of 1/4" steel plate on a chain and try it, see for yourself.

I am getting to old to argue and I am not trying to.

I just know I have learned a lot more using my eyes and ears and PAYING ATTENTION to what they are telling me than I have learned from this keyboard.

Good Luck Guys

 

[Larry Pletcher]

It's an education to stand behind the roundball bench line and watch these fellows shoot. I don't remember seeing a heavy roundball bench gun without a false muzzle. This isn't protect the muzzle; its to load a .503 ball with .020" teflon patch into a .500 barrel. It's not a ball when it is pushed through the FM. A mallot is used with a concave seating tool that matches the ball.

Every technique you can image is used to build consistency into every load. Most weigh out the powder charges at home on a scales. Drop tubes are used. Balls are culled to tight tolerances.

Windflags are used - often 4-5 of them on the 100 yard range. They have 45 minutes to shoot 5 shots. It is common to wait 10 minutes for the flags to be just right. 200 yards matches are almost always shot in the first couple of relays because the wind usually increases during the day. You may be competitive shooting 10s but you win with Xs.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[paulvallandigham]

That is the truth. :thumbsup: You see some of this kind of thing being done at Chunk Gun Shoots, too, these days. :idunno: :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Cptleo, unfortunately what you learned doesn't mean much. If you go by Lyman's Black Powder handbook, the point of diminishing returns for a 30 inch 54 cal. barrel is between 130 and 140 grains. So frankly you never reached the point where the powder wouldn't be mostly consumed.

The quote about the 75 grains was made by someone with no knowledge of ballistics. Even for a 50 caliber 26 inch barrel the point of diminishing returns is between 80 and 90 grains.

So technically, what you actually learned is that loads just at the point of diminishing returns kick like heck. That is about it.

More power to ya on your hunt.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

As for the 4 bore with 190 grains. That isn't even up to the service charge for 4 bores established in 1887 in England. It is actually about 2/3 of the original service charge. So ask yourself why did the guy back off a standard load?

 

[Supercracker]

As for the 4 bore with 190 grains. That isn't even up to the service charge for 4 bores established in 1887 in England. It is actually about 2/3 of the original service charge. So ask yourself why did the guy back off a standard load?

probably gave too much weight to info on the internet.

haha. j/k

 

[paulvallandigham]

Why do you NEED To shoot 190 grains in a 4 Bore gun??? We already know that a .58 to .62 Rb is heavy enough to penetrate fully any animal on this Continent. The 4 Bores were used in the late 19th century by professional Hunters on Elephant, and Cape Buffalo. The loads used were monstrous, and the shooter write about being knocked off their feet from the recoil, and hurting their shoulders.

The largest load I have fired from any Black Powder gun was a 4 oz. charge of shot in front of 6 drams( 165 grains) of 2Fg powder from an 8 Gauge( Bore) single barrel shotgun. Altho the gun weighed more than 10 lbs. that load definitely cleans the sinuses out! HELLO! :shocked2:

I personally think there is Way too much Testosterone influencing the decision to own such large bore guns, and in selecting those powder charges. A 4 Bore gun is 1.052" in diameter. I have not bothered to calculate what the ball would weigh, but its got to be 2 oz. or more.

I ask you, How big a freight car do you have to be hit with to die? Does it matter how fast its going, or whether its filled of cargo, or empty?

When you have ONE shot to use at Dangerous Game, Accurate placement matters far more than Power created by huge powder charges. Ol'Man "Flinch" is not the guy you want standing on your shoulder under such circumstances.

Why create the problem with ridiculous loads in practice, much less by using them in the field, when they simply are not needed, and are counterproductive??? Just because someone else CLAIMS to have used such a load more than 100 years ago? Do you Know anything about the powder he used, or what "literary License" the Hunter, or his Ghost Writer, or the Editor, OR the Print Setter took in printing that account??? Do you jump off a cliff because someone wrote/says he did it??? :hmm: :hmm:

One of the reasons some of those Beasts of guns have survived so long for us to see in museums is that they were NOT SHOT very often.

My friend with his 8 gauge still shoots his gun, but he has reduced the load used to 4 drams( 110 grains) and 2 oz. of shot- still way too much for most of his needs, but a lot easier on his shoulder. The .458 and .460 Magnum cartridge rifles are today's modern versions of the 4, 2, and 1 Bore guns made back in the 19th century. People buy them, but, most of them don't shoot the guns very often. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[cptleo1]

Why do you NEED To shoot 190 grains in a 4 Bore gun??? Because it is his gun and he wants to ! We already know that a .58 to .62 Rb is heavy enough to penetrate fully any animal on this Continent.Who exactly is this WE you refer to The 4 Bores were used in the late 19th century by professional Hunters on Elephant, and Cape Buffalo. The loads used were monstrous, and the shooter write about being knocked off their feet from the recoil, and hurting their shoulders.

The largest load I have fired from any Black Powder gun was a 4 oz. charge of shot in front of 6 drams( 165 grains) of 2Fg powder from an 8 Gauge( Bore) single barrel shotgun.What does this have to do with anything ? Altho the gun weighed more than 10 lbs. that load definitely cleans the sinuses out! HELLO! :shocked2:

I personally think there is Way too much Testosterone influencing the decision to own such large bore guns, and in selecting those powder charges. I don't care what you think and I know for a fact Testoserone over load is not on this mans adgenda.A 4 Bore gun is 1.052" in diameter. I have not bothered to calculate what the ball would weigh, but its got to be 2 oz. or more.

I ask you, How big a freight car do you have to be hit with to die? Does it matter how fast its going, or whether its filled of cargo, or empty?

When you have ONE shot to use at Dangerous Game, Accurate placement matters far more than Power created by huge powder charges. Ol'Man "Flinch" is not the guy you want standing on your shoulder under such circumstances.

Why create the problem with ridiculous loads in practice, No one said what he practices with, I never thought to ask him.much less by using them in the field, when they simply are not needed, and are counterproductive???The man shoots this weapon very well and kills everything he hits with it ,how can this be counterproductive ? Just because someone else CLAIMS to have used such a load more than 100 years ago? Where was there any mention of a 100yr old load ?Do you Know anything about the powder he used, or what "literary License" the Hunter, or his Ghost Writer, or the Editor, OR the Print Setter took in printing that account??? Do you jump off a cliff because someone wrote/says he did it??? :hmm: :hmm: Am I missing something here or are YOU the only one jumping off anything here.

One of the reasons some of those Beasts of guns have survived so long for us to see in museums is that they were NOT SHOT very often.

My friend with his 8 gauge still shoots his gun, but he has reduced the load used to 4 drams( 110 grains) and 2 oz. of shot- still way too much for most of his needs, but a lot easier on his shoulder. The .458 and .460 Magnum cartridge rifles are today's modern versions of the 4, 2, and 1 Bore guns made back in the 19th century. People buy them, but, most of them don't shoot the guns very often. :hmm: :thumbsup:

Paul, you have an opinion on everything and I respect that, BUT for the purpose of getting along you really need to change your style !

You don't even know this man or know his reasons for using the equipment he uses, but have no problems spouting of about a subject you have NO first hand actual experience with, this I find rude and unnecessary.

The purpose of this board is I believe, for the exchange of ML information and the cordial commentary on information included here in.

Instead of bashing a stranger and his ways, which seem quite contrary to yours, how about a little more diplomatic approach.

All you had to do is post something like:

"Cptleo, can you expand a little on why this fellow uses such a weapon, I am curious ?"

See, you open a dialog, you don't appear to be a know it all, with no actual experience, and good and meaningful exchange if information would begin.

Others might also feel a lot more likely to participate and everyone would benefit.

Had you asked about this fellow in a civilized manner you would have found out:

He is a survivalist who has lived out in the tulles in Canada for about 45 years.

He speaks as a matter of fact about how his dad and his daddy's dad all used MLs - Quick bit of math here tells me he has over 150 years of direct from father to son information pipeline that he bases his decisions on.

He will tell you right up front he is NOT a sportsman, he could care less about giving an animal a fighting chance.

He will tell you right up front that he is a killer plain and simple.

When he is harvesting meat or protecting what is his, you aim, you shoot, you kill and go on about your business.

Yes, he is about half a bubble off of level, but, he knows what works for him.

He has used the .58 and the .62 for moose and big bear and found them lacking.

In his experience, the .62 ball is often just under the hide of a moose on the far side, provided it didn't hit a big bone on the way.

His experience with big bears is, the ball rarely comes out period.

About 15 years ago he had a bad time with a Griz trying to get his horses at night.

He shot the Griz at about 25 steps, the Griz went
crazy thrashing around and tore down a section of coral fence before heading back into the woods.

It took him most of the next day to gather up his horses and on the second day he went looking for the bear.

Here he admits to being stupid, he assumed the bear to be dead.

He tracked it through thick timber and came up on it facing away from him.

While thinking about his next move the bear got up and came for him from about 25 yds away.

The bear was in a bad way and not up to speed, but was coming head down for him none the less.

He aimed for the middle of his chest and fired and waited for the bear to eat him.

When the smoke cleared and he realized he was still alive, the bear was laying there at maybe 8 steps.

He missed the bears chest and hit it in the top of its head killing it instantly.

He realized right then, how seriously under gunned and lucky he was.

He set about for a gun that would do the job.

The only BIG bore he could find was a Blunderbuss
which he seriously considered but, passed on due to very limited range and accuracy.

He takes 1 or 2 hunters a year out ML moose hunting to generate some cash for the year.

He was telling his hunter about the bear story and about his worries about finding a big gun.His hunter laughed and told him he had just what he needed an English 4 bore rifle.

The price was way more than he could afford.

On the hunters last day, the hunter told him he would swap the big gun for the next two years hunts for free and the deal was made.

The gun arrived a while later with a ball mold and a half dozen Balls - NO load info.

He played around with it and just kept adding powder.

When he got up to 200gr or so the recoil just got to be to much and he backed off it a bit and settled on 190, No books, no arm chair commandos,
that was the level of pain he was willing to put up with and still shoot the gun accurately.

What he found out was, the big gun would blow through a moose from any angle, just aim for the lungs and forget about waiting for the perfect angle.

Shoot for the lungs and don't worry about anything in the way.

With big bears, he got two.

He aims for the shoulder blades on purpose, blows them up and the bear is done.

As he says, "That is killing done right" !

He feels that hunting is the art of finding the animal, once found, the hunt is over and the killing begins.

And he believes in killing them as quick and as DEAD as possible, there is no sport to it at that point.

So you see Paul, with a little patience, you could have avoided bashing this great man and found out that not everyone using a big gun is a Testosterone charged, keyboard shooting fool.

With the right question, you could have got this great story and not got your undies all in a wad.

Our sport is dying, no thats not right, it is dead.

The grey beards that are left are perfectly willing to pass on their experiences in the spirit of friendship and mutual respect.

In the future how about sharing some of that.

Leo

P.S.

In proof reading this post, it reads sort of like a dime store novel.

It is not, the information herein is as accurate as I know.

This old man is as close to a genuine mountain man
as I have ever met.

He lives the life that many of us dream about.

I last talked to him 7-8 years ago, I write him 3-4 times a year.

I will probably be writing him again before the holidays.

Paul, I will include your comments about his big gun and will send you a copy of his reply - It will probably be short and to the point.

Again guys, lets try and be a little nicer to each other and have fun with our smoke poles while we have the chance.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Leo: Are you not confusing " Wants" with Needs"?

I was talking about "NEEDS". Your friend may be the most wonderful shooter since Annie Oakley, but don't kid yourself, RECOIL MATTERS.

Recoil has both immediate, and CUMULATIVE effects on the body. Recoil can cause a shooter to miss, and when he's hunting Dangerous Game, he puts himself, as well as his guide, and any other members of his hunting party in danger with him.

My mention of some of the heavy guns and loads I have shot was simply to tell readers that I am NO stranger to Heavy Recoil( and perhaps, a bit of testosterone influencing my judgment from time to time, when choosing guns. :wink: :idunno: )

I have been so concerned about the Effects of recoil, that I recalled a Trick I developed as a Skinny, 11 year old kid that got to shoot his father's Springfield Trapdoor rifle with original ammo, using Semi-smokeless powder, and a 500 grain bullet in .45-70. I wrote an article about handling Heavy Recoil to put those experiences to benefit other shooters, Titled, "Controlling Heavy Recoil", which you can read under " Articles " in the Member Resources section of this forum. Altho the name didn't exist back in the 1950s, I used what is now called an "Isometric" system to control the gun I could barely lift to shoot.

When the Pacific Gun Company was producing those heavy .58 caliber rifles, the barrels had a Muzzle Brake built into them, to help reduce recoil. The system was very similar to one designed by a company years ago in Pendleton, Oregon. One should NOT overlook that fact when making a judgment about what Kind of load you can handle from any gun.

The accounts of Professional Hunters in Africa that I have read, about using these large Bore guns to actually shoot Elephants, is that they were knocked over on their butts, and that their shoulders were damaged from the recoil.

That is why I bothered to step in and talk about " Needs" for these guns. The idea was originally proposed by another member's post.


You are entitled to your point of view. I will stick to my own. Thank you. :hmm:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Amen Paul. There is so much fiction about loads on the net.
" My sister in law's hairdresser's third cousin twice removed, uses a 200 caliber gun with 70000 grain Whiplash brand Super Sniper sabots over 3000 grains of Prussian Heissarse premium sifted powder. Of course he also uses windex, macadamia nut butter and sodium pentathol bore lube, a zebra tail felt over powder cushion and a Mossberg pressure washer to clean it."

Some poor unfortunate newbie, like that 14 yr old in Tennessee, is gonna do that and get killed.

Two years ago, on April 1, I posted a fake press release on an archery site about new Laser guided, co2 assisted propulsion, explosive tipped broadheads for sale. Only $34.00 each.

At least two guys wanted to place orders and got upset over the lack of response.

There is already substantial misinformation on the net. Don't steer a newbie wrong.