The loading gate question

[mykeal]

I've seen several references on various forums to a claim that 'ATF guidelines' say that a bp percussion revolver that has had the recoil shield modified to incorporate a loading gate is considered a firearm and requires an FFL transfer, regardless of whether or not a cartridge cylinder, no cylinder or a percussion cylinder is installed. In each instance I've asked the person posting the message to provide a link to the 'guideline' or 'regulation' but so far, nobody has. I've also not yet been successful in finding such a statement on the BATFE web site.

Can anyone provide a link or reference to the alleged BATFE 'guideline' or any other document expressing such a policy?

In particular, I'm interested in how such a 'guideline', if it indeed exists' applies to this revolver, a Uberti product initially marketed in European countries where cartridge handguns were prohibited:

Uberti calls it a 'Cattleman'; it's a percussion revolver which is intended to emulate the Colt Peacemaker but using percussion caps and black powder only. Pietta also makes a version of this same design. It has a loading gate incorporated into the frame which is useful for capping the nipples, but would also support inserting/removing cartridges if a compatible cylidner were installed. It also has a cartridge ejection rod, which is functional but worthless without a cartridge cylinder. I should note that there is no cartridge conversion cylinder currently available for this model, and that it would also require modification of the frame and hammer even if such a cylinder were made available.

So, is this gun a firearm under the BATF 'guidelines' as a result of it's having a loading gate incorporated into the frame?

 

Isn't the whole idea behind adding the gate so you can use metal cartridges?

Seems the ATF is assuming that if you add the gate, you no longer want it to be a "percussion" gun. Makes sense to me.

 

[Stophel]

I've never understood the purpose of this thing, but no, it is not considered a cartridge gun. It's not a loading gate anyway...it's a priming gate.

 

[mykeal]

Isn't the whole idea behind adding the gate so you can use metal cartridges?

Seems the ATF is assuming that if you add the gate, you no longer want it to be a "percussion" gun. Makes sense to me.

Read the entire post:

It has a loading gate incorporated into the frame which is useful for capping the nipples,

ATF can make all the "assumptions" they want, but it would be nice if they'd actually follow their own written rules.

 

Read the entire post:

It has a loading gate incorporated into the frame which is useful for capping the nipples,

On my Colt 1860, you don't have to open anything to add caps. You're saying that adding a gate, that one has to open and close is more "useful" than not having to open or close anything?

OK :v

I still say it's for people who want to use a cartridge cylinder.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I DO NOT have this in writing but what I was told is a black powder revolver, when modified to use a cartridge cylinder becomes a "Antique Firearm"


From ATF's NFA guide:

(16) The term "antique firearm"
means””
(A) any firearm (including any firearm
with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before
1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described
in subparagraph (A) if such
replica””
(i) is not designed or redesigned
for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which
is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not
readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle
loading shotgun, or muzzle loading
pistol, which is designed to use
black powder, or a black powder
substitute, and which cannot use
fixed ammunition. For purposes of
this subparagraph, the term "antique
firearm" shall not include any weapon
which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver, any firearm which is converted
into a muzzle loading weapon,
or any muzzle loading weapon which
can be readily converted to fire fixed
ammunition by replacing the barrel,
bolt, breechblock, or any combination
thereof.


I would use a FFL to transfer that revolver, better safe than sorry. Even unintentional violation of NFA law has dire consequences.

 

[mykeal]

The gun in question, the one I posted in the first message on the thread, is not an 1860 Colt. It is a quasi-replica of the Colt Peacemaker, a centerfire cartridge gun. That gun (the Peacemaker) had a loading gate to allow loading and ejecting cartridges and a cartridge ejection rod, and this gun (the Uberti Cattleman) includes both features. However, the Cattleman has a percussion cylinder, and one cannot cap the nipples with the cylinder installed unless he opens the 'loading gate'. Furthermore, there is no cartridge conversion cylinder available for this gun, and even if there were the frame would require significant additional modification to allow the hammer to strike the cartridge that was in battery. Thus, ON THIS GUN, the 'loading gate' is NOT intended for using metal cartridges.

 

The gun in question, the one I posted in the first message on the thread, is not an 1860 Colt. It is a quasi-replica of the Colt Peacemaker, a centerfire cartridge gun. That gun (the Peacemaker) had a loading gate to allow loading and ejecting cartridges and a cartridge ejection rod, and this gun (the Uberti Cattleman) includes both features. However, the Cattleman has a percussion cylinder, and one cannot cap the nipples with the cylinder installed unless he opens the 'loading gate'. Furthermore, there is no cartridge conversion cylinder available for this gun, and even if there were the frame would require significant additional modification to allow the hammer to strike the cartridge that was in battery. Thus, ON THIS GUN, the 'loading gate' is NOT intended for using metal cartridges.

Got it. Thanks for the explanation. :thumbsup:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I've seen that gun. The hammer was modified so it wouldn't be usable with centerfire cartridges. It is interesting indeed. I might have more to say later, have to go now with the family to NYC for a play.

Dave

 

[mykeal]

The language in the ATF publication 'Federal Firearms Reference Guide" is from 18 CFR Chapter 44, The Gun Control Act of 1968. The paragraphs you reproduced are under 921(a)(16).

It seems to me that the reference to installation of a loading gate constituting reworking the gun to enable it to fire cartridge ammunition comes from the language in (c), in particular:
"For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon
which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver..." It's interesting that the language does not include the very common term 'loading gate', but rather an obscure reference to something called a 'firearm frame'. Does 'firearm frame' mean loading gate, among perhaps other things. And why doesn't the language include the term cartridge cylinder...it would seem mandatory that a cylinder capable of holding metal cartriges be specified, if what you're trying to do is include cartridge ammunition guns under the definition of a firearm.

All of the above is the genesis of my search for language specifying 'loading gate'. And 18 CFR 44 921(a)(16)(C) is clearly not the answer to that search. So, where is it?

 

[Stophel]

"firearm frame", meaning a frame which has previously been categorized as a "firearm". This does not have one of those, since it was made from the get-go as a percussion gun. I don't know where the "if it has a loading gate" idea came from. Nonsense.

You can order these guns through the mail. Why one would do so, is another story...

:grin:

Next will be a percussion 1911. Pull the slide back to cap the nipple. The ramrod could be stored in the "magazine well"...

Even if there were such a thing...perish the thought...it would still NOT be classified as a modern firearm (unless it were constructed from an already existing standard 1911 frame. It would have to be made from the beginning as percussion). You could ship it freely to anyone in the country through UPS or the mail.

 

[Stophel]

On the other hand, if you were to take a normal percussion revolver, and convert it to take cartridges, THEN it is considered a "firearm", and you are considered the "manufacturer". If you were to then sell that gun...well, at this point, I don't know exactly what. It used to be that there was the Excise tax that would have to be paid, but that has been done away with through the "Gunsmith tax simplification act"... At any rate, at this point you could ONLY ship it to an FFL holder, but you would still be free to sell it to any individual first hand, just as with any other gun.

 

[OLDPUPPYMAX]

You would probably be better off transferring the thing through an FFL holder. After all, we must NOT be accused of exercising our friggin' Constitutional rights, especially in Hussein's Amerika.

 

[Stophel]

Apparently, they have quit making this gun. I can't find anyone listing it anymore. When they had them, you could order one from Cabela's, and have it sitting in a box on your front porch in a few days.

If you are trying to buy or sell this gun to or from another individual in person, do so with NO fears of breaking any law or ATF regulation. If you are wanting to buy or sell this gun to someone that would require you to ship it through UPS/mail/etc., then you can also do this with NO fears of breaking any law or ATF regulation.

Now, there may be some states which won't want you doing it, but not because it is a modern firearm. It is still an ordinary percussion pistol, legally speaking, no different than a '51 Navy.

:wink:

 

[rafterob]

Hey-I'd be all over that 1911. How do you suppose you would load it? Throw a bunch of powder and balls in the handle and shake it real good till they fall into the chamber? :rotf:

 

[Stophel]

Actually, it would be a very technically simple operation to make a single shot 1911 percussion gun. Just plug the breech and put a nipple in it. The firing pin could strike the cap.

IN NO WAY would I recommend anyone actually doing this, though... :barf:

:grin:

 

[R.M.]

Not a new idea. I've seen several used in competition. It's just not right!!!!

 

[Poor Private]

Now the next question this brings out is this. I have opened up my back blast shield so that I can more easily put caps on the nipples, since this opening is large enough that the loading gate of a Kirst Conversion works, Am I in big dudu? :hmm: I tell you that a Ted Cash capper, and arthritic fingers works much better now.

 

[a1albert]

I would bet that the parts on that 1873 Uberti Cattleman is interchangeable with the 1873 Uberti Cattleman chambered for the 45 Colt, just from looking at the pictures. I think I would check into it more before trying to ship it.

Albert

 

[mykeal]

I would bet that the parts on that 1873 Uberti Cattleman is interchangeable with the 1873 Uberti Cattleman chambered for the 45 Colt, just from looking at the pictures. I think I would check into it more before trying to ship it.

Albert

All you'd need to exchange would be the cylinder, frame, barrel and hammer. You could keep the grips, backstrap, trigger guard and the action parts.

I'm not trying to ship it or sell it. I'm just trying to track down the source of the claim that adding a loading gate constitutes converting the gun to a cartridge firearm. Where's the BATF document that makes that statement?