The locks for the Northwest or "Trade" guns

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Thank you for the .20 barrel offer Rob. I had shoulder replacement surgery on my right wing the first part of November. It’s getting better now. Today I was able to fabricate, inlet and mount a simple Hawken style toe plate on a TC for a buddy. Don’t tell my Doc. Give me a month or so for the bigger projects.
I saw a late nwt gun at a gun show a year ago it had a 36 “ barrel and was percussion 24 gauge it was in good shape and a Beauty .Theres still some of them kicking around in Saskatchewan I had to to walk away before I got myself in hot water .
 
Circle Fox even earlier than I had known before !! Check this gorgeous lock out !! Francis Smart marked lock ...he made guns for HBCo 1715-1727 ! Simply amazing !!!
 

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Rob, you’re right. I just pointed that Wilson Trade gun out to my wife earlier tonight. Page 135 of the book For Trade or Treaty. I’m seriously thinking about that gun as my 2024 project. You have a great eye for style. It shows in your gun building.
Old post but I’m leaning towards that same one for my next build.
 
Circle Fox even earlier than I had known before !! Check this gorgeous lock out !! Francis Smart marked lock ...he made guns for HBCo 1715-1727 ! Simply amazing !!!
Rob, that is what they call the thumb nail fox, as the bottom wasn’t a full circle. The true circle fox came later.

AFAIK, Chris Hirsch is the only source for a true NWTG lock and it is a Belgian style with double bridles. But, because it’s a lock kit, it could be altered to an earlier style by removing the external bridle and reshaping the pan, and not adding the internal bridle.
 
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Ive heard it called and even misquoted a few different ways bud . I'm not even 100% sure to be honest . One author calls it the tombstone fox but another author calls the " BOND " stamp the tombstone fox so .... Ive heard that the circle fox with flat bottom is the oldest stamp , even older than the circle fox , and ive heard they are actually the same stamp its just that on curved surface the bottom of the circle doesnt show up , done in a hurry ... Funny , doing lock plates I have that happen , you have to tilt the stamp to get the bottom of the circle to show up ....go figure. And our stamps today are made different than the stamps back then , the back ground etc.
 
Rob, that is what they call the thumb nail fox, as the bottom wasn’t a full circle. The true circle fox came later.

AFAIK, Chris Hirsch is the only source for a true NWTG lock and it is a Belgian style with double bridles. But, because it’s a lock kit, it could be altered to an earlier style by removing the external bridle and resharing the pan, and not adding the internal bridle.
Yeah , I have to remove the external bridles on some locks . Not a biggy .
 
Thumb nail , interesting ...I like that . Unfortunately this one ....the stamper got the whole circle in there so no " thumb nail " . Its an amazing piece . The earliest NW trade gun plate that I know of . His contract for HBCo was done in 1727 and by the style of the lock plate its obviously a 17 " teens " made lock . Also a fascinating thing .... Its a cast side plate and because of a letter to the gun makers in 1749 , we N.W. trade gun nerds thought that cast side plates started around 1749 ....Welp ...this proves that cast side plates are correct as early as 1727 !! Probably into the 17 teens !! Crazy !!. Fascinating !!
 

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The L&R trade gun lock looks more like a French lock to me, and not really appropriate for a Northwest gun, which was a quintessentially British arm. There were some later American and Belgian versions, but they copied the British design.

I would agree with a very large, round-faced English lock. Track of the Wolf had one of their own, but I think they have had difficulty stocking these. Davis locks have been reportedly hard to get. The Chambers early Virginia lock is not perfect but I believe would be acceptable. The Kibler Colonial lock might also work, if it’s big enough, but I don’t know its dimensions. Again, it would not be perfect but might be acceptable.

Danny Caywood used to sell his line of locks, separate from his guns. I have one of his Northwest guns and the lock is excellent. I believe these also come with the “fox in circle” stamp already in place. I associate this with Northwest Company guns. If I remember correctly, the HBC tended to use the “tombstone fox” mark, at least until the merger in 1821.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
The L&R trade gun lock looks more like a French lock to me, and not really appropriate for a Northwest gun, which was a quintessentially British arm. There were some later American and Belgian versions, but they copied the British design.

I would agree with a very large, round-faced English lock. Track of the Wolf had one of their own, but I think they have had difficulty stocking these. Davis locks have been reportedly hard to get. The Chambers early Virginia lock is not perfect but I believe would be acceptable. The Kibler Colonial lock might also work, if it’s big enough, but I don’t know its dimensions. Again, it would not be perfect but might be acceptable.

Danny Caywood used to sell his line of locks, separate from his guns. I have one of his Northwest guns and the lock is excellent. I believe these also come with the “fox in circle” stamp already in place. I associate this with Northwest Company guns. If I remember correctly, the HBC tended to use the “tombstone fox” mark, at least until the merger in 1821.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
Yep ... I love using the L&R trade gun lock on my French builds . They look great . No idea why they started using them on N.W. guns ...
 

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If I can find the pic ... My favorite way for the RE Davis lock to look.... Weld up the cast in " engraving " on the lock and c0ck , clean up said welds ... Love it ! Looks great ! ...and locks are rounded and 6" long . I'll try to include a pic with the cast in Engraving still present for comparison .Some folks like it so no sense in the extra work....but I love it with the extra work done to it ....let's see ....pics , hmmm.....
 

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The difference in the circle stamps is an interesting topic . The oldest stamps are made differently than later ones ...I'm not certain of the dates , when the change in construction . Its neat ...The oldest stamps ... The fox is chiseled out , so its form is higher than the back ground , the back ground is lowest , beaten down ... On the newer stamps the circle , the fox outline is beaten down into the metal , is lowest ,the background stays untouched...then the modern stamp, just outlines and they are driven down into the metal ; lowest .. . Kinda neat . Just the way the stamps are made ....
 

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If I can find the pic ... My favorite way for the RE Davis lock to look.... Weld up the cast in " engraving " on the lock and c0ck , clean up said welds ... Love it ! Looks great ! ...and locks are rounded and 6" long . I'll try to include a pic with the cast in Engraving still present for comparison .Some folks like it so no sense in the extra work....but I love it with the extra work done to it ....let's see ....pics , hmmm.....
I must have gotten ripped off. My copy of that lock is only 5.75” long. I want my .25” 🤣
 
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