the rifling ??

[Owen]

was found in a museum. Could any one explain the rifling used?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

This represents one of the earliest known uses of Marlin Micro-Groove rifling! :rotf:

Actually, I've no idea. But they were always experimenting and this may have been one of those attempts at improving rifled firearms. It looks like it may have been a patch-cutter though.

 

[bingo1952]

It's called hair rifling and no patch was used. A groove diameter ball was started with a mallet and then rammed down on a fairly light charge for caliber. A .62 probably wouldn,t have used more than 25 or so grains of powder. A very nice set of pistols by the way. Look at the Damascus barrels. This wasn't the work of a backwoods gun builder. Those were extremely expensive even in their day; they probably cost 300 pounds at least.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

that's real fine work there, due to the mallet in place in the case I figure Runnball has it ID'd correctly.

 

[TFoley]

They look French, around 1760 or so, and are an extremely valuable pair of gentleman's travelling pistols.

Duelling pistols, for the most part, were smooth bore, to give both antagonists an equal chance.

The French, cunning persons that they were/are, invented a form of rifling that did not show at the muzzle, but 'disappeared' about 1/3 - 1/2 way up the barrel from the breech end. This 'secret rifling' was known as French rifling in the trade.

Even without knowing who made this pair of pistols, the exquisite workmanship and completeness of the fittings and accessories would make this pair sell at auction for at least US$25K, perhaps up to five times more, if the name should on them should turn out to be Boutet.

A similar pair, with a somewhat lesser but still well-regarded name, was sold at auction in UK last month for £18,000 less seller's commission.

tac

 

[wulf]

I believe that "half rifling " was called Paradox.

 

[bingo1952]

Paradox rifling was used in a lot of 19th century large bore African breech loaders to allow the use of shot or ball. The theory was that it would grab a ball just enough to impart some spin for stabilization before exiting the gun but wouldn't grab a shot charge tight enough to blow the pattern. Paradox rifling was also only put in the last 6-8 inches of barrel at the muzzle.

 

[sethb]

some really nice looking pistols there

 

[TFoley]

I believe that "half rifling " was called Paradox.

You are correct, insomuch as the name was given by English gun-makers to double 'semi-rifles used in Africa, as Mr Runnball notes above.

He also points out that the rifling was only present toward the muzzle end of the barrel and there was no suggestion of trying to conceal it in any way from the game animal at which it was pointed, most of whom would not recognise the form of rifling in any case, I dare say.

By direct contrast, the 'secret' rifling began in the breech, and ended mid-way up the barrel, so a casual glance by a 'duelling second' would not appreicate that the arm was, in fact, rifled, and there far more likely to be accurate enough to cause injury or death to his associate actually taking part in the duel. This rifling was applied in disregard of the standards of decent behaviour of the day.

tac

 

[Zonie]

Greener, in his book "THE GUN AND ITS DEVELOPMENT"
refers to this form of rifling as "Polygroove".
Unfortunately he doesn't say anything about it beyond having a drawing (p637) of it.

 

[TFoley]

Greener, in his book "THE GUN AND ITS DEVELOPMENT"
refers to this form of rifling as "Polygroove".
Unfortunately he doesn't say anything about it beyond having a drawing (p637) of it.

That description is one that was applied in late Victorian/Edwardian times, when Mr Greener wrote his book. A more familiar term to those with an interest in the Code Duello would be 'scratch rifling' - rifling that is very difficult to see with the naked eye. I have found 28890 references to this on Google.

This is one comment -

'Most duelling pistols had smooth bores, though some had "scratch rifling" (a subtle form of rifling which was difficult to see with the naked eye). Pistols with rifled barrels spin-stabilise the shot when it is fired, resulting in much improved accuracy. As a result, duelling pistols with rifled barrels were considered unsporting by many.'

As I have only fought two duels using MY weapon of choice - the first being a sock full of snooker balls and the second an Irish hurling stick - I cannot make any firm judgement on the efficacy of shooting a handgun close-up that may or may not have had the added cache of being rifled to produce an underhanded level of accuracy, especially given the adrenaline rush that would make any such activity rather iffy at the best of times.

In Germany, where the rifling form that you see on those pistols was said to have been developed around 1600 in the city of Augsburg, it was intended to permit the easy loading of a second shot, and was straight, rather than helical. It was, it is said, a complete accident that adding a slight helix to the grooving process was seen to lead to a substantial increase in accuracy.

tac

 

[Zonie]

Yes, I have read that but one wonders...

It was long known that a spinning arrow flew straighter than one which didn't spin.
It really wouldn't require a genius to think, "I wonder if spinning the ball would make it fly straighter?

As for the rifling on these pistols, this rifling is far more noticeable than the scratch rifling and other types of "hidden" rifling that I would think of when discussing dueling pistols.
In fact, I think is stands out very noticeably.

 

[TFoley]

As for the rifling on these pistols, this rifling is far more noticeable than the scratch rifling and other types of "hidden" rifling that I would think of when discussing dueling pistols.
In fact, I think is stands out very noticeably.

Dear Mr Zonie - not wishing to be argumentative in any way, but

a. I never said that the rifling in these pistols was scratch rifling - please read my post.

Quote - 'They look French, around 1760 or so, and are an extremely valuable pair of gentleman's travelling pistols.

Duelling pistols, for the most part, were smooth bore, to give both antagonists an equal chance.' End Quote

b. To me that clearly notes that these are travelling pistols and NOT duelling pistols. I don't see how I could make that point much clearer.

c. It was I who forestalled comment any comment about the possibility of them being duelling pistols by mentioning that duelling pistols often had 'secret' rifling, and went on to explain it, without further reference to THESE pistols.

d. I'm getting old, but I am not yet senile.

tac

 

[Mike Brooks]

They are French ca. 1800 give or take 10 years. I don't know what they called it back in the day but that rifling is commonly seen on high end French pistols. I was handling a pair of percussion screw barrel box lock French pocket pistols ca. 1840 ish last week with the same rifling.

 

[Owen]

Thanks guys on the info ... always good to learn new things