Thinking About Having a Scottish Musket Made.

[Rudyard]

Well there are so few surviveing Scotts longarms that no one could declare' so & so never happened '. Its a fine piece and well interpreted, nice work whoever did it Regards Rudyard

 

[MacRob46]

Well, over the last 12 years or so, I have had the opportunity to view photos of a great many Scottish long guns, most of them, in fact. All those I have looked at, with the exception of a couple which are sporting what are clearly replacement locks, have otherwise been equipped with a distinct version of the Scottish snaphaunce. Only 27 of these guns from the 17th c. have survived. The question of whether there were more, which were lost, stolen, destroyed or left the public view in another way, probably won't wever be answered with any clarity. But, I am willing to bet that there were few others made. Economic facts enter into it in that by 1700 there was an estimated 150,000 pounds in coin circulating in Scotland and that was concentrated in the hands of a few. Gun makers, and most other craftsmen of the times, had to have hard cash in payment for their work because they had to import a significant amount of their raw materials. This argues for a relatively small number of these guns being made. Certainly there were no major centers of firearms production like those in England, in Scotland.

I assume your comment stems from my remark that the English style lock on the Grandfather Mountain gun was not correct. I stand by that, while at the same time applauding the craftsmanship of the maker, who was the gentleman holding it for the picture.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Mac Rob You seem upset but you shouldnt be on my account .Perish the thought as that would be the last thing I would want .You clearly are a proper 'Student of arms' and have studied the examples much as I have .Naturaly over the course of use alterations and improuvements will alter from the original and I expect there would be degrees of finnish according to the taste & purse of owners .and going on the few cant be a full as it might be .Hence I wrote ' No one could say so & so never happened ' I was NOT meaning any particular person least of all you . There is nothing wrong with your gun or the piece made up using TRS parts its just as plausible no two pieces being alike .The piece I made an illustrate in the photo has English lock internals & **** . It was 'got up' to use up a borderline stock blank and the old possibly Turkish barrel so calling it a 'late down market piece ' I used it hunting .While the Snaphance rifle was made with better finnish and full snaphance .And like all newly made pieces adds nothing to the study of original except in a Living History context

.I will clarifie 'Student of Arms' This is a term true Experts use because being true experts they know that the subject is so vast and multey facetted that no one could claim to know it all . Plenty of FME s about but you are not one of them .Please be assured of that . And the makers work I've seen is first class .(Bar mine I know there rough!) I do hope this clarifies my observations for you and I appologies if I unwittingly ruffled your feathers as that was certianly not my intention Regards Rudyard

 

[MacRob46]

Rudyard...thanks for your concern re: my ruffled feathers. However, my feathers are not ruffled. At my advanced age that seldom happens any more and certainly not in your case. No, I was merely pointing out that there don't seem to be any examples around originally equipped with English locks. Of course these guns were modified and repaired from time to time, using parts from other guns, Scottish and English as well, which can make them a bit hard to figure out. You are absolutely correct in saying that anything could happen with these guns, and probably has.

I really like what you do and it would be great to own one of your guns. Thanks for sharing the photos.

 

[Tacksman45]

Does anyone have any pictures of the guns from the Seafield Collection in the Royal Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh? Specifically I would like to see pictures of the longgun catalog# LNA32 (R-12) in Scottish Firearms. I attached a picture of the one I am referring to to this post. I would like to know what the approximate width of the barrel at the breech is, what the ramrod pipes look like, and if the barrel is pinned or uses bands, and where they are placed. If anyone has any of this information on any of these guns in would very much appreciate it.

Thanks!

 

[Rudyard]

I did just reply a full helpful letter PM but the E jaget said' Oops to many words so it et it '. PM me on it Regards Rudyard

 

[Tacksman45]

I did just reply a full helpful letter PM but the E jaget said' Oops to many words so it et it '. PM me on it Regards Rudyard

Did you get my pm?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Buckskinner,

I may have got Rudyards PM, as I just replied to you now.
In my reply, I told you I would ask a mate in NZ, not knowing you'd meant the reply for him!

I can say that Rudyard has a lot of info on this gun. I do not I'm sorry to say, but know of it well enough.

 

[Rudyard]

I replied by E All very interesting but cant help further at this time will post pics of latest Scots in due course . That old oddity piece dosnt seem fake to me but could be got up later. The Middle East Or Indian notion I discount . & whether it ever was free on the ball it had Iv'e no idea . Pity about Mr Krolic I tried to PM him but the E gajet said I couldn't . Regards Rudyard

 

[Tacksman45]

That old oddity piece dosnt seem fake to me but could be got up later. The Middle East Or Indian notion I discount . & whether it ever was free on the ball it had Iv'e no idea.

What are you referring to when you say "that old oddity piece," and what do you mean by "whether it was free on the ball?"

 

[Rudyard]

' Old oddity piece ' is the banded Scots that has/had the ball stuck in it . It being undoutably old & an oddity .Some thought Near East or Indian I doubted that. Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Here is a Link that I posted on the Forum near 8 years ago. I believe MacRob might remember this. But for those of you interested in Scottish guns, and haven't seen this Thread, you might find it some fun reading.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/scottish-snaphaunce.78470/
Rick

 

[Tacksman45]

Rick,

Thanks for sharing this post with me! I have seen this post, and this gun is very interesting! Did you ever come to a conclusion on where the gun is from? I personally have a feeling that it may be from the Caucuses region, but I completely agree with MacRob that it is likely a North African gun, possibly a trade gun since it has proof marks of some kind.

 

[Rudyard]

I don't agree with the North African view, Nor that its' crude' within the parameters of such arms . If its Spannish looking marks you cant hold your breath on its genuineness . the stock looks well used the lock far fresher visually but I guess its anyones guess . I think its neat & interesting . and even if it dos'nt follow the known arms there are far too few originals to go by .My conjectural Snap lock post Ancrum Moor matchlock & the long 'common' lock piece . or any such cant be proven as to the design either way they are just conjectural 'Lunt werk" adding little beyond my ammusment . Many Longarms taken at or after Cullodon where destroyed in the Fire while stored at the tower . I aslo don't see that the gathered up impressed army's would have arms other than such as they could find . A great mixture by all accounts . so long as the gun fired its date style or old fashion had little relevance so long as it still worked and had to be better than non.
That Mr Krolic had difficulty with making Snaphance locks I am well aware they are a' challenge' I made two recently simply because the first one prouved undersized so I made the second & have since stocked up the first so no problem it looks just fine . Both early square nut type with the cocks comb or tail all from lumps of angle iron ect from scratch the Mounts as well very complex mounts research prouved and way beyond the specs & fuzzy photoe's I had . All praise to the museum that held the original but my 'Commission' amounted to a squabble over costs & Im'e still owed postage . Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Hi Buckskinner.

No, we never figured this out. Nor was he ever able to get the rest of the load out of the barrel. LOL
But it's been almost 8 years since I posted the Thread. So I'm taking a fresh look at the photos again.
Although it's difficult for me to believe this gun started life in Scotland, then saw use in North Africa, then eventually found it's way back to Scotland, a case could be made for it's assembly (or re-assembly) at some point in North Africa utilizing some different parts. More specifically, Algeria.
SOCK: The crude punch/hash mark decoration on both sides of the butt stock and lower comb are similar to marks seen on Algerian blades. Also that single, crude sheet metal barrel band is done in a fashion common to North African, lower quality guns. Notice there are two holes in the stock for use of a sling at some point. The one in the forestock would not be unusual. But the rear hole is what caught my eye. Notice it's right in the middle of the wrist area. Every Algerian locally made long gun I've seen (many) have this rear sling hole in the same location at the wrist/grip area. (I can post pics of this if anyone is interested).
BARREL: The barrel stamps do look Spanish. While Spanish barrels were held in high regard during the period, it's hard to believe that if the gun were originally made in Scotland the builder would utilize a Spanish barrel considering the influence and any surplus parts available from the closer proximity of Britain. The barrel could be older with the under lugs coming unsoldered at some point. Thus the need for the barrel band - which would be the norm in North Africa. And a Spanish (or Italian?) made barrel ending up in North Africa seems to make more sense than Scotland. But others here on the Forum could comment on this better than myself.
LOCK AND TRIGGER: These look to be genuine and not locally made North African copies. But MacRob or others could probably answer this question better.

So, this could have been an Algerian/North African build using a found/surplus lock and trigger, and styled after a Scottish pattern. But how would a North African tribe builder know what a Scottish gun/butt stock design was supposed to look like - even back then ? Still a big mystery to me. My comments are just speculation.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Rickystl Your Algerian thoughts noted . Unlikely as it seems but truth is very often stranger than fiction. So I wouldn't count it out though the lock which looks right does seem less worn and it turned up in Scotland yet seems to fit, they didn't allways fit inside the mortis going by the few pictures we have . The 'Spanish barrel while it might resemble the marks of that noted maker also seems to bear the oval London mark. Not that this cant happen I own a Barrel by Roxas of Madrid and one by Alonso Martinez . The Roxas bearing undoubted London proof marks common practice to mount such barrels they then being highly esteemed as good barrels plus no doubt a nice souviniere of their owners ' Grand Tour ' .
Both barrels came to me loose but where stocked up by me to put them into a plausable context rather than just floating barrels ,Good for rabbits too( though the rabbits object ).But of course these where spuriously forged and the poor London mark, if it was meant to be one suggests that this could be the case if its not that clear to call either way.
How it ends up like it is .Where it is a mystery but truth IS stranger than fiction as we all should recognize .Spanish barrels did not have loops & keys but where stocked to have bands / Capucines instead as it was considered sort of sacrelige to fit loops . Though such beliefs where less likely to be considered if stocked in UK .( The same holds true for Turkish arms if again as oft ignored if mounted in Europe or England ) and both my barrels where fitted with loops. Guns like this are enough to make anyone loopy. LOL?
Regards Rudyard

 

[user 56381]

Dank Pukka zeigen diese drei Bilder Stücke meiner Marke. Die Wheellocks sind nur auf Lager, der Lemon Butt ist eine Requisite. Der frühe Feuerstein ist nach Felix Werder von Zuric c1650, der glänzende Lauf Scotts ist Snaphance, der andere ist ein englisches Schloss, das entwickelt wurde, wobei die letzten drei verwendet werden für die Jagd.
Gruß Rudyard

Hallo Rudyard
Habe die Bilder leider erst heute entdeckt. Mich würde interessieren, nach welcher Vorlage das Felix Werder Gewehr steht.
Viele Grüsse
Roger

 

[user 56381]

Hallo Rudyard
Mich würde interessieren nach welcher Vorlage das Werder Gewehr entstanden ist. Also nach welchem Original. Vielen Dank
Swissguns

 

[user 56381]

Hallo Rudyard
Habe die Bilder leider erst heute entdeckt. Mich würde interessieren, nach welcher Vorlage das Felix Werder Gewehr steht.
Viele Grüsse
Roger

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hallo Rudyard
Habe die Bilder leider erst heute entdeckt. Mich würde interessieren, nach welcher Vorlage das Felix Werder Gewehr steht.
Viele Grüsse
Roger

Hallo Rudyard
Mich würde interessieren nach welcher Vorlage das Werder Gewehr entstanden ist. Also nach welchem Original. Vielen Dank
Swissguns

Guys,
Rule 3 Posts must be in English.
Please use the PM feature if you are going with a language other than English. Thanks

LD