Three knives of the longhunter

[JC Mendyka]

Dear Forum,
Edited: I am looking for some information on the types and wear of the common three knives carried by the frontier hunter/trapper of 17th century Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New York. I know of a neck carry and a belt carry, however, the types of knives interest me. Any information would be most appreciated. The more detailed the better. Additionally, any authentic reproducers of these knives would be greatly appreciated as well.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Belt knife, and a folder, neck knives were basically Native. A basic pattern scalper would have been proper for everything.

 

[springfield art]

Dear Forum,
I am looking for some information on the types and wear of the common three knives carried by the long hunter. I know of a neck carry and a belt carry, however, the types of knives interest me. Any information would be most appreciated. The more detailed the better. Additionally, any authentic reporoducers of these knives would be greatly appriciated as well.

One always sees articles about this subject in Muzzle Blasts and Muzzleloader magazine. Knives were a major trade item, used by all for everything. They sell repros of Green Rivers at Crazy Crow and other retailers. Interesting subject!

 

[Hermit Tim]

I think the knife is the most important tool for the woodsman. Good subject to study.

 

[French Colonial]

Every inventory of items shipped to the colonies from England and France appears to have trade knives included in them. Sometimes by the barrel full.

These knives did not only go to the natives but were sold to everyone who needed a knife, yes there were custom knives being made by gunsmiths etc., but as today, the trade knives were cheaper and more abundant.

They were plain and utilitarian and were used in a lot of cases until they were used up.

For a Longhunter, I would look for an English pattern trade knife as the east coast would be where they were outfitted.

Also a pocket knife of the period would be acceptable.

Neck knives, as mentioned above were more of a native and French Voyageur type of thing as the French especially on the frontier were more apt to live and marry among the natives. Their mode of dress, natives and French was a mixture of native and European.

 

[tenngun]

We know two knifes was not uncommon, but neither was one.
Folding knifes were very common. I’m willing to bet long hunters had several.
Simple small seems common. Large knifes such as the rifleman’s pattern are a PIA to carry
We have little documentation on neck knives for anyone, however it was known, we just can’t bespeak how widely
Spend a few days and nights on your own on a trek and tell me how useful you found it. My own experience with one is one day before it got transferred to the belt

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Plain old boring butcher/scalping knife and or a folder. No neck knives.

 

[Brokennock]

frontier hunter/trapper of 17th century

Just so we are all clear in what you are looking for,,,, did you really mean 17th century or did you mean the 1700's?
I ask because the 17th century, while not undiscussed, is earlier than most folks here pay attention too. Most of the focus seems to be 18th century, the 1700's, through mid-19th century, the 1800's.
There can be a big difference between 1656ad and 1756ad

 

[JC Mendyka]

Yes. 17th century is definitely a time frame I am look at as well. Nothing after the 7 years war.

 

[Brokennock]

Yes. 17th century is definitely a time frame I am look at as well. Nothing after the 7 years war.

7 years war is 1756 to 1763,,,, 18th century.

Can't go wrong with trade knives and butcher knives.
Imported, trade knives and butcher knives. Not a lot of evidence for "homespun" or local blacksmith made knives at the time.
Belt carry seems most predominant unless native, some possibility of sheaths mounted to shooting bags. Some possibilities for carry in the top of Indian style leggings, but can't go wrong with a center-seam sheath tucked in the belt or sash. Neck carry would seem to be predominantly a native thing, and not with the cute little "neck knives" we see now, full size trade knife/scalper.

 

[Rancocas]

In that time period of say; mid 1600's through the mid 1700's the area of the upper Delaware River (PA, NJ, and NY) through the Catskill Mountains over to the Hudson and Mohawk Rivers (NY) had a lot of Dutch influence. Therefore, I think, Dutch style knives would have been fairly common, along with the English styles, of course.
For a short period during the 1600's the lower Delaware River area (PA, DE, NJ) was known as "New Sweden". So...

 

[Rifleman1776]

Large knifes such as the rifleman’s pattern are a PIA to carry

Agreed. Those were carried for fighting and a little inconvenience in carrying was less important than having it at hand when needed. The OP did specify hunter, he likely would have had smaller knives. BTW, I have tried skinning critters with my riflemans knife and it's 11 1/2" blade, very-very awkward. Sometimes I used it to slice meat in camp. But, otherwise was useful only for show and demo purposes.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Dear Forum,
Edited: I am looking for some information on the types and wear of the common three knives carried by the frontier hunter/trapper of 17th century Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New York. I know of a neck carry and a belt carry, however, the types of knives interest me. Any information would be most appreciated. The more detailed the better. Additionally, any authentic reproducers of these knives would be greatly appreciated as well.

So as many have mentioned, IF a guy is carrying three knives, it's likely a large knife like a butcher knife, a smaller fixed blade knife like a trade knife, and a clasp knife that folds. The "neck knife" was very much a native thing... no pockets in the breechclout, eh?

So what you're looking for is a good sized butcher knife. Popular for "combat" but actually more often used to dispatch a wounded animal such as a bear or deer to save ammo (See Forty-Four Years of The Life of A Hunter by Meshach Browning), or for quick dismemberment of the meaty parts to then pack the meat home.

The above were quite inexpensive, being "half-tang" blades, and a modern, carbon steel full tang would not be amiss, although I take off the modern handles with the massive rivets, and add very plain handles and small pins.... OK so I usually "cheat" and use small steel wood screws that when cut off and filed flush with the handle look like pins but won't work loose.



The other knife would be smaller as it was the more utility knife, skinning knife, etc. Clasp knives could also be used for skinning but from journals appear to mostly have been for used when eating.

is similar to this

INTERESTING that the design is still around and modern made, carbon steel, non-locking Opinel #5 is essentially the same for the past several centuries, other than having the hinge location reinforced with steel, and the need for the removal of the brand name from the body and the blade. They are quite inexpensive. The groove for the thumb nail on the blade being the only real "improvement" after reinforcing the hinge.

LD

 

[Notchy Bob]

Yes. 17th century is definitely a time frame I am look at as well. Nothing after the 7 years war.

So, roughly 1600 to 1763?

I would agree that neck knives are over-represented these days. As noted by several people above, there isn't much evidence that they were used by white hunters. However, a lot of people now seem to want them. I saw a picture of an Indian with a neck knife when I was about 12 years old and thought it was cool. I cobbled together a neck sheath for an old knife I had. I very quickly abandoned the idea after wearing it for a while... always swinging and flopping around, and not as easy to access as you might think. I got neck knives out of my system a long time ago.

I would strongly recommend that you read Joseph Doddridge's Notes on the Settlement and Indian Wars of the Western Parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania from 1763 to 1783, Inclusive. It is available to read online for free right here. Doddridge mentions the hunters carrying "scalping knives" frequently, and he also described them carrying clasp knives. He specifically stated the scalping knife was carried on the belt. He didn't really give any detail as to what they looked like, but trade knives of the type associated with scalping knives did not change much over more than two centuries. This 1628 image by Matthaeus Merian (1593-1650) shows John Guy in his first encounter with Beothuk Indians in what is now Newfoundland in 1612:


It was a peaceful encounter. Note the knives the Englishmen are offering in trade, and compare them to this "scalping knife" from Dean Oliver, of River Traders:



The knife John Guy is holding (in the foreground) does appear to have a ball-end grip, but there was some variation in handle design.

The upshot is that I would agree with the folks who recommended a scalping knife for you. I don't know enough about clasp knives of that period to discuss them, but will look forward to reading what more knowledgeable folks contribute.

If you want something a little different, and considerably larger, you might consider a plug bayonet:


That one is a reproduction, but it is very similar to one taken from an Indian during King Phillip's War (1675-1676). The original, which is believed to be of French origin, is described and pictured on the Deerfield Raid website. I think these are typically 18"-20" long. They are intended to be stuck or "plugged" into the muzzle of one's musket for close-quarter combat. Obviously, the musket is unshootable while the bayonet is in place. I suspect they were more frequently used as big knives, but I haven't really dug into the history of their use. The Rifle Shoppe sells parts sets in several variations for people who would like to assemble one, and they tell us that "...Erik Goldstein states that the first mention of [French] plug bayonets in Canada was in 1647. In 1689 many of the Indians had them."

So, you have options for authentic cutlery, but you might have an easier job if your timeframe could be narrowed somewhat. Research is so much easier than it was even a few years ago with so much of the source material, like Doddridge, available online for free.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[JC Mendyka]

I have that exact same Opinel Knife sitting on my desk as we speak

 

[JC Mendyka]

So, roughly 1600 to 1763?

I would agree that neck knives are over-represented these days. As noted by several people above, there isn't much evidence that they were used by white hunters. However, a lot of people now seem to want them. I saw a picture of an Indian with a neck knife when I was about 12 years old and thought it was cool. I cobbled together a neck sheath for an old knife I had. I very quickly abandoned the idea after wearing it for a while... always swinging and flopping around, and not as easy to access as you might think. I got neck knives out of my system a long time ago.

I would strongly recommend that you read Joseph Doddridge's Notes on the Settlement and Indian Wars of the Western Parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania from 1763 to 1783, Inclusive. It is available to read online for free right here. Doddridge mentions the hunters carrying "scalping knives" frequently, and he also described them carrying clasp knives. He specifically stated the scalping knife was carried on the belt. He didn't really give any detail as to what they looked like, but trade knives of the type associated with scalping knives did not change much over more than two centuries. This 1628 image by Matthaeus Merian (1593-1650) shows John Guy in his first encounter with Beothuk Indians in what is now Newfoundland in 1612:

View attachment 236476
It was a peaceful encounter. Note the knives the Englishmen are offering in trade, and compare them to this "scalping knife" from Dean Oliver, of River Traders:

View attachment 236477

The knife John Guy is holding (in the foreground) does appear to have a ball-end grip, but there was some variation in handle design.

The upshot is that I would agree with the folks who recommended a scalping knife for you. I don't know enough about clasp knives of that period to discuss them, but will look forward to reading what more knowledgeable folks contribute.

If you want something a little different, and considerably larger, you might consider a plug bayonet:

View attachment 236478
That one is a reproduction, but it is very similar to one taken from an Indian during King Phillip's War (1675-1676). The original, which is believed to be of French origin, is described and pictured on the Deerfield Raid website. I think these are typically 18"-20" long. They are intended to be stuck or "plugged" into the muzzle of one's musket for close-quarter combat. Obviously, the musket is unshootable while the bayonet is in place. I suspect they were more frequently used as big knives, but I haven't really dug into the history of their use. The Rifle Shoppe sells parts sets in several variations for people who would like to assemble one, and they tell us that "...Erik Goldstein states that the first mention of [French] plug bayonets in Canada was in 1647. In 1689 many of the Indians had them."

So, you have options for authentic cutlery, but you might have an easier job if your timeframe could be narrowed somewhat. Research is so much easier than it was even a few years ago with so much of the source material, like Doddridge, available online for free.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

What great information. True my time frame needs to be narrowed down, this is the process I'm going through right now. I have access to many books as a librarian and would love to read the selections offered here.

 

[Snapper Petta]

If you're still looking for a quality knife maker, put Ken Hamilton into your favorite search engine. Ken lives outside Augusta, Maine and he's been making knives for years. I portray a trader at various living history locations and many of my French, English & Dutch knives have been made by Ken. You'll get a good product for a fair price. I really recommend you check him out.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.

snapper

 

[springfield art]

So as many have mentioned, IF a guy is carrying three knives, it's likely a large knife like a butcher knife, a smaller fixed blade knife like a trade knife, and a clasp knife that folds. The "neck knife" was very much a native thing... no pockets in the breechclout, eh?

View attachment 236273 View attachment 236274

So what you're looking for is a good sized butcher knife. Popular for "combat" but actually more often used to dispatch a wounded animal such as a bear or deer to save ammo (See Forty-Four Years of The Life of A Hunter by Meshach Browning), or for quick dismemberment of the meaty parts to then pack the meat home.

View attachment 236276

The above were quite inexpensive, being "half-tang" blades, and a modern, carbon steel full tang would not be amiss, although I take off the modern handles with the massive rivets, and add very plain handles and small pins.... OK so I usually "cheat" and use small steel wood screws that when cut off and filed flush with the handle look like pins but won't work loose.



The other knife would be smaller as it was the more utility knife, skinning knife, etc. Clasp knives could also be used for skinning but from journals appear to mostly have been for used when eating.

View attachment 236278 is similar to this View attachment 236277

INTERESTING that the design is still around and modern made, carbon steel, non-locking Opinel #5 is essentially the same for the past several centuries, other than having the hinge location reinforced with steel, and the need for the removal of the brand name from the body and the blade. They are quite inexpensive. The groove for the thumb nail on the blade being the only real "improvement" after reinforcing the hinge.

LD

I love the Opinels. Used to be a dealer had 'em at gun shows, but haven't seen any lately. The various sizes are great.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

... looking for some information on the types and wear of the common three knives carried by the frontier hunter/trapper of 17th century ...

If not mistaken, every mention I have ever heard of this in books that I have or have read, has been from the 1700s and those as worn by French Coureur de Bois (runner of the Woods) or Milcien (militia), but not just any frontier hunter or trapper.

One book states and I paraphase, but I always recalled the description, as it even went so far as to specifically call out that they ... "The French men were easily identified, although looking quite 'native', as for wearing 3 knives, fixed knives at the neck and belt, with a folder at the legging garter/tie".

I'll confirm with Ken, as was just talking with him today about other 1700s stuff.

 

[BillinOregon]

Plus one for Ken Hamilton's wonderful knives.