Thumper question 1777 Charleville

[GregLaRoche]

I have an original 1777 Charleville. It was made in 1815, so it didn’t see any wartime service and is in good condition. What to note about it is how strong the springs are. No one with experience with these guns have ever experienced springs as strong.

I have installed a shim on the tumbler to make the trigger pull shorter and crisper. The tumbler has three notches. Full cock, half cock(safety) and a third notch that is to stop the hammer. The problem is the sear doesn’t engage in the last notch. The hammer continues forward and contacts the side plate, damaging it.

I did file a little on the sear, but don’t think the problem was caused by me, because there were already marks on the side plate from the hammer hitting it.

Could the problem be geometry of the sear, that keeps it from engaging? Or maybe the overly strong spring that causes the tumbler to move too fast for the sear to in gage it?

Thanks for all thoughts and advice.

 

[FlinterNick]

Sounds like the full cock notch is worn down; you may want to file it out and make a slight chamfer on its edge. Then polish down with 1500, and 3000 grit paper. I’ve done this with several older reproductions and it works fine.

and you may want to Consider case hardening all internal parts.

 

[GregLaRoche]

Sounds like the full cock notch is worn down; you may want to file it out and make a slight chamfer on its edge. Then polish down with 1500, and 3000 grit paper. I’ve done this with several older reproductions and it works fine.
and you may want to Consider case hardening all internal parts.

I don’t understand how changing the full cock notch will effect the third notch. Maybe changing the the sear angle.

 

[GregLaRoche]

Just realized that my auto correct screwed up the title. It should be Tumbler Question.

 

[hawkeye2]

I believe I understand what you are saying, the sear should engage the 3rd. notch when the hammer is fully down (fired position) to arrest it. I'll admit I have never heard of anything like this and it would seem the sear and tumbler meeting at the point where the hammer has the greatest speed and momentum would quickly damage both. It took a couple of minutes to realize what you were describing as I've always heard the notches numbered from the fired position Ie. half cock 1st., full cock 2nd..

 

[Flintlock1640]

Could you add a picture? I've never seen a 1777 with a third notch. The lockplate is intentionally thicker before the pan to stop the cock. The cock should be flush with the plate but if it is out some it can cause the stop to wear on the cock itself so maybe some sort of modification for the wrong tumbler?

 

[GregLaRoche]

I’ll try to upload some pictures. I haven’t been able to on another site, where you have to drag and drop. I’m using an iPad so when I try to drag a picture everything moves. There’s probably a way to do it, but I haven’t found it. Maybe this site is different.

 

[hawkeye2]

How to post a photo:

POSTING A PICTURE ON THE FORUM
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/posting-a-picture-on-the-forum.115183/

 

[FlinterNick]

I don’t understand how changing the full cock notch will effect the third notch. Maybe changing the the sear angle.

I thought you meant the full cock position notch, if I'm understanding you mean the mainspring foot rest right ?

 

[FlinterNick]

Ok taking a step back here.

So if the sear isn't resting comfortably on the tumbler foot (what your describing as the third notch) then it is likely that the tumbler on the lock is a later replacement from a smaller lock, geometrically this would cause the hammer to smash the plate up with full mainspring pressure.

The original tumbler likely became stripped and some point and removed and replaced. You may want to consider getting a new tumbler and having it turned to the correct position. A Pedersoli 1777 tumbler might work fine and replacement flintcock would work too, Dixiegun works has those parts.

 

[GregLaRoche]

Here are some pictures. I should have written the text before adding them I think.

As you see, there are three tumblers. From left to right the original with three notches a second with two notches and the third that I am using now. I have been learning the hard way. The first two maybe can be salvaged, but I came to realize, that it is a complicated equation to get everything working together.

The other pictures are of the damage being done.

 

[hawkeye2]

I still find it incredibly difficult to believe a tumbler notch is used to stop the fall of the cock. Just catching in the half cock when fired can break the nose off the sear and even break the notch. I would think that just a couple of shots using that notch to catch the cock would destroy the nose of the sear even with the friction of the flint against the frizzen as well as the force absorbed in opening the frizzen slowing the cock. One would also have to be very fast releasing the trigger for that to work. I see the damage to the lock plate and that's not normal. It's almost like the cock isn't square (parallel to the plate) and is only catching the outside of the plate and then at an angle. I would peen that displaced metal back and smooth out the area as well as the corresponding area on the cock and then see it it fits far enough onto the tumbler to assure good square contact with the plate.

My first thought was that someone had tried to speed lock the gun by modifying the half cock notch to become the full cock position and adding a 3rd. notch to become a new half cock but I see you have 2 tumblers alike and what would have been a new half cock isn't shaped right to work as such.

The ideal situation is to have the tumbler strike the bridle at the exact instant the cock hits the top of the lock plate distributing the force to two areas.

BTW, the half cock notch (safety) on the left tumbler is history. It's been modified such that it can't do it's job reliably, a dangerous situation.

 

[GregLaRoche]

I understand what you are saying about the strength of the sear being able to withstand the force.

The isn’t hitting the plate squarely. I can try to adjust that, but I still think it will have enough force to damage the plate.

I did peen the metal back once and cleaned it up, but it keeps doing the same thing. People who know these guns say they have never felt springs as stiff as on my gun. Maybe that is what is causing the problem. I don’t know about hardening and tempering springs. Maybe there was a batch that weren’t done right, making them too stiff and that’s what I have. Ironic, because most of the spring problems I hear about are the springs are too soft.

I have a friend checking to see if there is an expert I can take or send it too. I don’t know if you know, but I am in France and there are a lot of these guns around and they are popular to compete with. I think there must be someone who can solve this problem.

 

[hawkeye2]

It would be nice to see photos of the inside of your lock. I think the cock should strike the plate further in, that is it's just catching the outer edge. You can reduce the strength of the mainspring with a file. Sear and frizzen springs too.

 

[GregLaRoche]

I’ll take some more pictures tomorrow. I think I have some from when I first got it. I took pictures when I first disassembled it to be sure to be able to put it back together. I have to laugh now, because I’ve had it apart and put back together so many times, I could do it blind folded now.

As I look at these pictures, I see I was wrong and the original tumbler was the one with only two notches.

Here are some pictures from the Army Museum in Paris of a Dragon like mine

 

[GregLaRoche]

FfActually, this is the lock of the with the brass basinet. I got mixed up and the others are regular 1777s.

 

[hawkeye2]

From your photo it looks like your bridle is broken in two through the tumbler hole.

 

[GregLaRoche]

Yes the bridle was broken and one of the screws sheared off. I found a replacement and made a new screw.

 

[GregLaRoche]

I took things apart today and saw that the hammer wasn’t contacting the plate 100% squarely. I filed it some to remedy that and peened the metal back. I couldn’t think of anything to really take a picture of. I’m shooting it tonight and will see if there is any difference. Unfortunately, I’m not too optimistic.