tipi poles

When does your book come out?No matter our disagreements I would like to read it.I like anything Native related :grin:

 

[Holley]

The book looks like it is due out next year. IT will be 300 pages with 150 photographs and drawings. And yes, I do describe the basic traditional tipi with short poles. We are all too influended by the 1950's Luabin look of tipis or the highly romantic idea of what a tipi should look like. Tipis were just nomadic or travel trailers of their time. Some looked great and most looked like dumps. Nothing sacred or religious about them....except designated lodges for societies. All the information is based on diaries, visuals and actual materials from the time periods.

And I am not in total dissagrement with you...I just am looking at proof of what you say. Can you back it up with some material other than here-say? And Oh! gawd, don't tell me some Indian said this or that. I have started to find that they do not know about their own historic culture. There are several that do and can give you proof of waht they say. Unfortunatly, those who know about tipis are very far and few and most the information is based on the period of 1900 to 1950. :hmm: The cloth tipi and not the hide tipi.

There is another book coming out next year or later this year on Buffalo hide tipis. You should see the reaserch on this one. Same short poles on tipis too. :shocked2:

 

Cool,I look forward to reading it. :thumbsup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

:grin: You are right about photographs, but lets try old sketch book drawings, drawings by Kurz, Catlin, Miller and Bodmer.

Here's some early illustrations of pole length.

Karl Bodmer's journey with Prince Maximilian zu Wied in 1832-34 took him across nearly three-quarters of the North American continent.

George Catlin traveled the plains region during the summers until 1836 and returned East in the winters to get more money for his ventures. In 1832, he was aboard the American Fur Company's new steamer "Yellowstone," the first steamboat that traveled to Fort Union at the mouth of the Yellowstone River.

 

[Holley]

Thanks Claude!!! :v ...those are great examples of what I am trying to say. Just didn't want have time to get them up. :applause: :applause:

 

Besides being short, did they also use crooked poles with branches left on them as illustrated by these period images? Or is that a crazy artist thingy?

 

[Okwaho]

I would say that they made do with what they had,as was posted earlier long poles weren't really easy to come by on the prairie.
Tom Patton

 

[Holley]

Yup! that is what the old photos show too. And being that you are seeing different artist in that group...they all seem to see the same thing.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I would say artist interpretation liberty, never saw real horses and men as Catlin depicted.

The tepee is not a unique Native American shelter, but the Ursa from Siberia and Mongolia might explain where the design originated, or, necessity, that mother of invention led to how it evolved under similar climatic and life style conditions in far separated lands.
[url] http://www.buryatmongol.com/tepee2.JPG[/url]

 

[Claude Mathis]

I would say artist interpretation liberty, never saw real horses and men as Catlin depicted.

You are probably correct to a certain degree, they did have a definite "style", but I think they painted what they "saw", to the best of their ability. That is, compared to an artist who painted in the studio, based on what they had heard or imagined.

 

Crooked short poles with leaves and twigs still attached at the small end must have gone out of style by the time the camera was introduced. I haven't seen any photos of tipis with these kinds of poles being used as in the paintings.
Don

 

[Holley]

I have...and today it is still common at Crow Fair to see tipis with the leaves on top.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Crooked short poles with leaves and twigs still attached at the small end must have gone out of style by the time the camera was introduced. I haven't seen any photos of tipis with these kinds of poles being used as in the paintings.

Perhaps not style as much as availability?

I would guess that by the time photos were being taken, the Natives were using canvas and poles sold or provided by the Europeans. Or at least, they had the metal tools to "groom" the poles. Notice the clothes and wagon in this example.

And, perhaps most of the photos were shot on reservations or just outside the "fort", so that may not be indicative of what was still being used in more remote areas.

Of course I'm just guessing as I have no documentation. Tipis, any ideas?

 

[Holley]

Claude....you are right on most counts. Availablility it the big thing. Use what you can and I have seen photos where they used 2x4's of the time.

 

How will we know the title and author of your book. "Tipis" by Tipis? :grin:
Don

 

PS, that's NOT me in any of these images, I refer to my lodge{2nd one} as "the gypsy lodge" It's a very historically authentic portable lodge,as were the conical,the dome,and the small lean to.I suggest Frances Densmore's "Chippewa Customs" where Native Ojibwa/Chippewa lodges are discussed.
Megwetch
Tom Patton

I have wondered if the buffalo covered conical lodge was evolved from the birchbark conical lodge of the Great Lakes area. The Sioux and Cheyenne were pushed out onto the plains by the Ojibway at an early date. These people possibly lived in birchbark conical lodges and after moving out to the prairies covered the same lodges with buffalo hides since birchbark is scarce out there. What do you guys and lady (I just read your bio, Linda) think of this theory?
Don

 

[Holley]

Very possible to answer your question. But, I am not the expert or even that knowledgeable on the Hide tipi. Believe it or not, there is a book coming out in Buffalo Hide Tipis later this year or early next by Mike Terry and Ken Woody.

My book is called
TIPIS-TEPEES-TEEPEES: STUDIES IN THE HISTORY, CONSTRUCTION AND EVOLUTION OF CLOTH INDIAN TIPI
BY
LINDA A. HOLLEY :shocked2: :bow: :blah:

 

That's catchy. Oughta be able ta remember that one and thanks for the tip on the other book as well. As far as the theory thingy goes. What's your gut tell ya? I know, no docs, just speculating.
Don

P. S. I DID get part of the title right. :grin: