to bed or not to bed, that is the question

[RjSixgun]

Not N-ssa rules,
but I believe the British muzzle loading clubs have rules like that, which is why they use cork

 

[Britsmoothy]

Not N-ssa rules,
but I believe the British muzzle loading clubs have rules like that, which is why they use cork

Or canvass. Or wood veneers.

 

[Artificer]

My grandfathers Ohio flintlock 36 cal. was bedded the whole length with some type of fabric embedded in what looked like hoof glue. That rifle was a tack driver, he could take squirrels with head shots at 50 yards.

I've seen that in a few original rifles as well. Yes, it was hide glue and fabric, the precursor to epoxy and fiberglass cloth or fiberglass floc mixed into the epoxy; the latter we were doing in 1974 when I first learned to "fiberglass bed" NM and Sniper rifles. Matter of fact, I've seen original "laid" linen paper used along with hide glue in some original guns, when the bedding got too loose.

As tough and critical as International Muzzle Loading rules are about fixing original stocks, they allow hide glue and wood shims to tighten up a loose stock, because it was an original method of fixing loose stocks. Of course the easy way to do that is use almost paper thin strips of wood and hide glue above and below the wood shims with a good mold release on the barrel.

The Technique Dave Person uses goes back to at least the late 1970's when many if not most of the "premier" builders were also doing it in long rifle stocks, though they did not advertise they were doing it. Just as in the stock Dave showed, many people would not recognize it was a thin layer of Accra Glas in the stock channel, unless someone told you, because it just looks like the stock is well sealed.

Gus

 

[Vaino]

I've glass bedded CFs , both bench rest and hunting rifles which did increase accuracy but never a MLer. My first ever MLer was from a .50 TC Hawken kit and it was a dual purpose rifle....squirrels and deer. It head hit nearly all the squirrels and quite frankly surprised me of its accuracy seeing the barrel inletting was sloppy. I kinda figured that because both sights were on the bbl and that the heavy bbl didn't experience harmonics, were the reasons for its fine accuracy.

My next build was a LR w/ a 42" lg .45 bbl which was 7/8" across the flats and it too head hit 99% of the squirrels. This LR had excellent bbl inletting but the accuracy was no better than the TC Hawken w/ its lousy inletting.

I think some who shoot MLers like to tinker w/ their rifles and are likely to wax the stocks even though the finish does a fine job of protecting the wood. So....because MLing BBls are usually much heavier than those on CFs and the lighter MLing loads don't produce bbl harmonics, glass bedding doesn't normally increase accuracy but would strengthen the fragile forestocks of LRs.....and colored epoxy would increase the esthetics on MLers w/ sloppy inleting.....Fred

 

[Buckskinn]

I can see bedding for strength on a traditional ML, but for accuracy it's a whole different animal from modern firearms. ML has a lot fewer areas to correct vs a modern gun and thick, heavy barrel negates the effect of harmonics typical of moderns...

You look at all the ingredients that go into modern firearm accuracy for just making the bullet compared to pouring approximately x number for grains under a piece of fabric and an imperfect ball of lead. Sorting, weighing brass, fire forming, trimming, neck turning, pocket uniforming, deburring, weighing powder to 1/10 grain, micrometer bullet seaters which seat bullets with secant ogive, boattails and perfect meplats... Of which those bullets are verified by Dopper radar of there ballistic coefficients which is at least 10x that of a round ball.

It's amazing we get the accuracy that we do.

 

[Cpt Flint]

That the breech end of the barrel, including all tang area surfaces, must be evenly and squarely bearing on the wood around it is essential to accuracy. PERIOD. The question is not how much bedding compound to slather up and down the forestock but simply how to keep everything from moving around when the thing goes off.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Assuming a muzzleloader does not vibrate upon firing is yet another of the unqualified myths that flies around on the internet! Like 4f is forbidden from main charge use!
My experience....not opinion, is that every muzzleloader to pass through my hands that struggled to group well was always improved via A; removing contact between barrel and the lock or part of the lock mechanism and B; supporting the barrel with full length contact with the timber.

 

[Robby]

I have used hide glue to bed inlays. I don't see why it couldn't be used to bed an entire barrel if natural material is required. It is not water proof but is water resistant when cured and can be varnished anyway.

Robby

 

[Artificer]

Assuming a muzzleloader does not vibrate upon firing is yet another of the unqualified myths that flies around on the internet! Like 4f is forbidden from main charge use!
My experience....not opinion, is that every muzzleloader to pass through my hands that struggled to group well was always improved via A; removing contact between barrel and the lock or part of the lock mechanism and B; supporting the barrel with full length contact with the timber.

I agree about the unqualified myth that even the heaviest ML barrel doesn't vibrate and/or barrel harmonics are not important.

I'm sure you don't mean to remove contact between a flintlock lock and the barrel, as grains of powder will get down into the stock and you could set your stock on fire during prolonged shooting. However, a LIGHT contact of the Flintlock Lock to the barrel is definitely better than really screwing the side lock screws down hard. On a Percussion Lock gun with the lock not touching the barrel, though, it just means you have to be very careful to remove the lock during every cleaning to get the fulminate residue off the barrel and inside the lock, as that stuff will rust/pit the dickens out of either the barrel or lock.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I have used hide glue to bed inlays. I don't see why it couldn't be used to bed an entire barrel if natural material is required. It is not water proof but is water resistant when cured and can be varnished anyway.

Robby

Robby,

There are basically two kinds of glues sold as hide glue today. One is the original that has to be melted in a double boiler pot. The second is more modern glues sold as Hide Glue by Elmer's, Titebond, etc.

I would not recommend most folks try original hide glue as it is a PITA to go through the learning curve to use it AND it has a tendency to break up when used as a barrel bedding compound by itself. That's why in the period they used it to glue in wood that was re-inletted for the barrel channel OR under and over fabric in the barrel channel - where the fabric supported the glue.

I don't have experience with the modern Hide Glues as it wasn't allowed by International Rules for ML guns. Actually, If I use modern stuff, I know Accra Glas like Dave Person showed is a much better product and is made to resist the hammering of a barrel in recoil.

Gus

 

[Britsmoothy]

I agree about the unqualified myth that even the heaviest ML barrel doesn't vibrate and/or barrel harmonics are not important.

I'm sure you don't mean to remove contact between a flintlock lock and the barrel, as grains of powder will get down into the stock and you could set your stock on fire during prolonged shooting. However, a LIGHT contact of the Flintlock Lock to the barrel is definitely better than really screwing the side lock screws down hard. On a Percussion Lock gun with the lock not touching the barrel, though, it just means you have to be very careful to remove the lock during every cleaning to get the fulminate residue off the barrel and inside the lock, as that stuff will rust/pit the dickens out of either the barrel or lock.

Gus

Not really. A flint lock can indeed be off the barrel by the thickness of paper.
I am yet to come across a traditional muzzleloader that is completely flash free inside the lock!
I seal my locks mechanism with a beeswax based grease. Flint or other. I tend to remove the locks for inspection on a bi yearly rota and promptly replace them with no further action required.
Percussion locks are prone in the fitting of the barrel causing the nipple drum or bolster to bear heavy on the lock plate. Thus a torque is applied to the barrel between plate and tang. Now add the tenon pins and or wedge and there is no way that barrel can ring uniformly....ok, ok, the steel wont "ring" sat in wood but even the dampening effects of the wood have to be uniform when the barrel vibrates.

We test old side by sides by hanging the hinge lug on the finger and lightly tap the barrels. If the soldering is still good the barrels will ring. If not the sound will be dull. This demonstrates how a barrel does indeed ring or vibrate. The slightest gap in a bad solder joint has an effect so why some think a muzzleloader is exempt is beyond me. I can only assume it's an easier option than trying to figure the solution out!
We don't tend to hear of many issues with accuracy from underhammers do we!
Their designs lend themselves excellently to allowing a consistent barrel vibration shot to shot compared to full stocked trad designs!
The barrel in a full stocked muzzleloader must be completely married to the timber. No high spots. No pressure points. Laid as near perfectly as possible and independent to any other hardware.

 

[Artificer]

Not really. A flint lock can indeed be off the barrel by the thickness of paper.
I am yet to come across a traditional muzzleloader that is completely flash free inside the lock!
I seal my locks mechanism with a beeswax based grease. Flint or other.

OK, under those conditions, I see how it would work. Thank you for your more complete explanation.

Gus

 

[Cpt Flint]

If a shooter can get away with only taking a lock out twice a year he isn’t shooting much.
We have a fifty yard bench on the back deck and a 200 yard covered bench 10 minutes away. I am a heavy user spending days on end building in my shop and shooting groups. I know when to clean. During heavy shooting days at Friendship most shooters remove the lock daily and clean from necessity. I suspect that much of this internet chatter about rifle building comes from keyboard shooters . Come shoot the table matches at Friendship and find out.

 

[Britsmoothy]

If a shooter can get away with only taking a lock out twice a year he isn’t shooting much.
We have a fifty yard bench on the back deck and a 200 yard covered bench 10 minutes away. I am a heavy user spending days on end building in my shop and shooting groups. I know when to clean. During heavy shooting days at Friendship most shooters remove the lock daily and clean from necessity. I suspect that much of this internet chatter about rifle building comes from keyboard shooters . Come shoot the table matches at Friendship and find out.

Good point. However, some strip the lock after a couple of shots also.

I sure would like to attend one of these so called "friendship" events. They sound like fun.
As for qualifications on building a rifle I have very little and was in no way offering instruction on building a rifle.
My comments, based on experience, where in relation to accurising troubled rifles.

 

[Cpt Flint]

Britsmoothy, point taken. Our Bisley Camp equivalent for muzzle loaders Is located near the small town of Friendship, Indiana, USA.
This is the center of the universe for some of us.