to bed or not to bed, that is the question

[stickmann00]

My Don Getz swamped barreled .50 cal Pennsylvania longrifle was built by the late Jay Olson of Seattle. His mentor was the late longrifle builder Ted Fellowes. The rifle is a tack driver and it is bedded the entire length of the stock. Most of the bedding is very thin since Jay was very good at snug inletting.

 

[stewart.leach]

A well respected gun builder here on the Colorado Front Range does much Eric K does. An advantage he pointed out to me is that the very thin layer of epoxy does a good job of sealing the wood of the forestock against moisture. Makes sense to me- when I clean I inevitably have some overflow when filling the bore with warm soapy water, and when seating a nice wet patch and ball some of the Moose Milk runs down between barrel and cap.

Back about 1975 I bought a kit for a TC Renegade. Of all silly things, it was a left handed kit, lock on the left side, in a stock with no cheekpiece. At the time I was very involved with M1 and M1A rifles for competition, and decided to put the TC kit together the same way. Wanted a weather resistant rifle, so all steel parts were Parkerized, tang, barrel and lock were epoxy bedded, and wood was finished with several coats of polyurethane boat deck varnish. Best choice rifle ever for muleys and elk in bad weather down in the pinon-jumiper cover. That rifle holds zero even after several days of hunting in the wet brush. Ninety grains of FFg under a Lee Improved Minie.

 

[bpd303]

My grandfathers Ohio flintlock 36 cal. was bedded the whole length with some type of fabric embedded in what looked like hoof glue. That rifle was a tack driver, he could take squirrels with head shots at 50 yards.

 

[stink koat]

Sorry, but you guys have been involved far too long in modern high powered rifles to be involved in black powder guns, BEDDING A SOFT STEEL BARRELL that fires a SOFT, PATCHED, LEAD roundball. GIVE ME A BREAK!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sorry, but you guys have been involved far too long in modern high powered rifles to be involved in black powder guns, BEDDING A SOFT STEEL BARRELL that fires a SOFT, PATCHED, LEAD roundball. GIVE ME A BREAK!

 

[Pete G]

Some of the comments are close and some utter nonsense.
Vibration between barrel and stock has to be as one unit. The moment the barrel can vibrate against the stock accuracy will suffer. Vibration, some call it harmonics, does indeed happen from any firearm.
Snug inletting will negate any need for bedding material. Failing that something to marry full contact between wood and steel most definitely is needed if you want a useful rifle.

And yet we slot the underlugs to allow for barrel movement. Go figure

 

[Britsmoothy]

And yet we slot the underlugs to allow for barrel movement. Go figure

We want the barrel to expand or shrink from ambient temp changes or from repeated fire without becoming bound so much so it induces a very subtle bending. That causes zero to walk.
Vibration is a separate issue and is omnipresent in any firearm.
Try watching how a tuning fork behaves when it gently touches something. Or get a knife that will ring when tapped on a hard surface. While it is ringing gently touch it on something hard and observe its random behaviour! That's what a poorly fitted and sitting on the lock plate barrel of a muzzleloader does.

Argue about all day long if you desire, wont fix nothing.

 

[Art Caputo]

With good inletting of the barrel it doesn't seem to be a problem. The rear face of the barrel bearing on the rear face of the barrel channel is what takes all the recoil. I have talked to some builders who will put a very thin layer at the breech area and it could be an option to fix a bad inlet. Also even though some of these rifles shoot extremely well most poeple aren't shooting bench rest groups at hundreds of yards and worrying about tenths of inches in group size with them. Open sights and traditional shooting positions probably limit the accuracy of most shooters before the gun does.

This ^^^^^

 

[Kansas Jake]

I do like the idea of a light coat of Accraglass as Dave Person does to add strength and water resistance to the barrel channel. I may try that.

 

[Cpt Flint]

It all boils down to what kind of group average you get from the rifle. No amount of conjecture, supposition, theory or guess work
replaces an accurate and dependable Longrifle. Internet chatter about opinions and theories amount to little or nothing. That record target posted out in front of you tells all.
ACCURACY IS FINAL.

 

[Britsmoothy]

It all boils down to what kind of group average you get from the rifle. No amount of conjecture, supposition, theory or guess work
replaces an accurate and dependable Longrifle. Internet chatter about opinions and theories amount to little or nothing. That record target posted out in front of you tells all.
ACCURACY IS FINAL.

 

[oldwood]

Capt. Flint.. I'm with you. When I'm trapped by some mistake , or some stock shaper's mistake , or have to fix a stock w/ a break or ingrown bark inclusion , or just lengthen a forearm , out comes the dyed 5 min. epoxie , and a thin plastic shopping bag for release agent and the fix is in. Years ago I tried to make my barrel inletting tight and as flawless as possible. Then ran into a prominent m/l gun stock precarver that was teaching a "how to build it" m/l class in a local high school shop . His inletting was tight and flawless done on a Don Allen 5 axis stock carving machine. He noticed some of the classes finished rifles shot tight groups right from the git -go , and others had inconsistency problems. Anyway , the grouping problems were caused by tightly clamping thin weight barrels in place when drilling the barrel pins . Once the pin holes were longitudinally slotted , that problem disappeared. Another interesting thing that affected my barrel inletting was looking at old original rifles from the inside out. By todays standards , the inletting was pretty bad. Many barrel inlets thought an octagon barrel shape were inlet into a round inlet. Can understand the old time thinking , time is money and how many hammer/chisel blows is reasonable and since it doesn't affect accuracy what is the sense??? Don't get me wrong , their's no substitute for good craftsmanship , but it becomes obsession after a while. I could go on...........oldwood

 

[Cpt Flint]

Capt. Flint.. I'm with you. When I'm trapped by some mistake , or some stock shaper's mistake , or have to fix a stock w/ a break or ingrown bark inclusion , or just lengthen a forearm , out comes the dyed 5 min. epoxie , and a thin plastic shopping bag for release agent and the fix is in. Years ago I tried to make my barrel inletting tight and as flawless as possible. Then ran into a prominent m/l gun stock precarver that was teaching a "how to build it" m/l class in a local high school shop . His inletting was tight and flawless done on a Don Allen 5 axis stock carving machine. He noticed some of the classes finished rifles shot tight groups right from the git -go , and others had inconsistency problems. Anyway , the grouping problems were caused by tightly clamping thin weight barrels in place when drilling the barrel pins . Once the pin holes were longitudinally slotted , that problem disappeared. Another interesting thing that affected my barrel inletting was looking at old original rifles from the inside out. By todays standards , the inletting was pretty bad. Many barrel inlets thought an octagon barrel shape were inlet into a round inlet. Can understand the old time thinking , time is money and how many hammer/chisel blows is reasonable and since it doesn't affect accuracy what is the sense??? Don't get me wrong , their's no substitute for good craftsmanship , but it becomes obsession after a while. I could go on...........oldwood

 

[Cpt Flint]

There has also been some discussion on vibrations of a rifle barrel. Since the speed of sound travels faster in metal than any projectile
can, vibrations are by necessity a part of the accuracy equation. An inexpensive mechanic’s stethoscope can be purchased at most any auto parts store. With the barrel alone firmly clamped in a padded vise at the breech, place the stethoscope rod on the barrel at various points while tapping on the barrel lightly. The sounds emitted will change from a ring to a dull thud when a vibration node is reached. This is a pressure point.
Or, you can place small engine piston rings up and down the length of the barrel while tapping on the barrel. They will dance up and down the barrel and collect at a vibration node.
Interesting things to ponder, but I don’t think we need to become overwrought with it.

 

[BJHabermehl]

Back before synthetic stocks came on the scene and gun stocks were made of wood, the rage was to glass bed an action to keep the barrel and action from shifting around when fired. Doing so had dramatic affects on accuracy. What is the opinion on doing this to a Trad. ML? As they are just usually pinned once or twice and secured at the breech it would seem they to would shift around when fired. Would they benefit from this alteration?

NSSA rules do not permit useing artificial bedding compounds on competition muskets. Only period available products are allowed if I remember correctly. So there is at least a perceived advantage in glass bedding. Plus some die hard traditionalism.
My take is most shooters eyesight is not capable of seeing a difference useing iron sights if the gun is bedded or not assuming a quality hand bedding job was done to start with.
I personally have no issue with epoxy bedding the breech especially when the stock blank is on the soft side. Also when a beginner is inletting a breech and is ready to admit to having done a questionable job. This will prevent splitting issues later. Just my two cents. BJH

 

[Treestalker]

A well respected gun builder here on the Colorado Front Range does much Eric K does. An advantage he pointed out to me is that the very thin layer of epoxy does a good job of sealing the wood of the forestock against moisture. Makes sense to me- when I clean I inevitably have some overflow when filling the bore with warm soapy water, and when seating a nice wet patch and ball some of the Moose Milk runs down between barrel and cap.

Back about 1975 I bought a kit for a TC Renegade. Of all silly things, it was a left handed kit, lock on the left side, in a stock with no cheekpiece. At the time I was very involved with M1 and M1A rifles for competition, and decided to put the TC kit together the same way. Wanted a weather resistant rifle, so all steel parts were Parkerized, tang, barrel and lock were epoxy bedded, and wood was finished with several coats of polyurethane boat deck varnish. Best choice rifle ever for muleys and elk in bad weather down in the pinon-jumiper cover. That rifle holds zero even after several days of hunting in the wet brush. Ninety grains of FFg under a Lee Improved Minie.

A survival rifle for the post apocalypse zombie infested swamps! Love it!

 

[Treestalker]

Sorry, but you guys have been involved far too long in modern high powered rifles to be involved in black powder guns, BEDDING A SOFT STEEL BARRELL that fires a SOFT, PATCHED, LEAD roundball. GIVE ME A BREAK!

The bedding, especially in the breech/tang area gives it strength and may prevent splitting on a less than perfect inlet. I almost always bed in that area on my builds for that reason.

 

[hawkeye2]

NSSA rules do not permit useing artificial bedding compounds on competition muskets. Only period available products are allowed if I remember correctly. So there is at least a perceived advantage in glass bedding. Plus some die hard traditionalism.
My take is most shooters eyesight is not capable of seeing a difference useing iron sights if the gun is bedded or not assuming a quality hand bedding job was done to start with.
I personally have no issue with epoxy bedding the breech especially when the stock blank is on the soft side. Also when a beginner is inletting a breech and is ready to admit to having done a questionable job. This will prevent splitting issues later. Just my two cents. BJH

The N-SSA has no restrictions on the material used to bed any firearm used in competition. Epoxy is the favored material.

Bedding does make a measurable difference specially with imported guns and it's noticeable using open sights. I agree that it isn't necessary with a quality hand bedding job.

With you all the way on the last paragraph.

 

[BJHabermehl]

The N-SSA has no restrictions on the material used to bed any firearm used in competition. Epoxy is the favored material.

Bedding does make a measurable difference specially with imported guns and it's noticeable using open sights. I agree that it isn't necessary with a quality hand bedding job.

With you all the way on the last paragraph.

Then I stand corrected on the NSSA rules was my information seriously old or just plain wrong? Some how I was pretty certain or I wouldn’t have posted it. My apologies to all for posting bad info. Was I confusing this with the international organizations rules? BJH

 

[hawkeye2]

Then I stand corrected on the NSSA rules was my information seriously old or just plain wrong? Some how I was pretty certain or I wouldn’t have posted it. My apologies to all for posting bad info. Was I confusing this with the international organizations rules? BJH

No big thing. I've only been skirmishing for 35 years so I don't know it all, could have been an older rule. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it might be an international rule.