Too fat

[54ball]

Hmmmmm
Too fat!!!!!!
When an Early Ketland looks like a Small Siler, you know your stock is too fat.

Better now.....
Sometimes they get fat, I guess that’s from oversized layout. It all adds up.
So when they get fat.
Make them ....not fat.

 

[longcruise]

At first I thought this was personal about me.

I think you improved it very nicely.

 

[azmntman]

I have a cherry limb I may see if cold be a stock. If it does I will do a first come deal here, I cut down the neighbor's cherry tree when it suddenly died. I have nowhere near the talent (let alone the tools) to do this. Looking Good!

 

[54ball]

I have a cherry limb I may see if cold be a stock. If it does I will do a first come deal here, I cut down the neighbor's cherry tree when it suddenly died. I have nowhere near the talent (let alone the tools) to do this. Looking Good!

Are you kin to George Washington? Be honest.
Talent?????
I just fumble through these.
Tools......
All you really need is a
1/4 inch chisel, a good rasp, an 8/7 gouge, a depth gauge, a straight edge, pencils, markers, a vise, a candle, a drill with bits and a buddy with a bandsaw.
^^^^
No joke you can stock a rifle with that.

 

[azmntman]

Maybe I try on a pieces of Aspen and see. And I'm not but the wife is s a 17th cousin or something. That dna stuff is cool. And dangerous

 

[54ball]

Maybe I try on a pieces of Aspen and see. And I'm not but the wife is s a 17th cousin or something. That dna stuff is cool. And dangerous

You may not have got the joke....
George Washington chopping down the Cherry tree
“He cannot tell a lie.”
Da-dump-dump—-ting

When joke has to be explained, it’s not very good.
Carry on and thanks for the compliment.

 

[azmntman]

Ya I got it. He too cut down a cherry tree. Bragging on the wife. She paid me 350 and I got the wood (was thinking smoking chips so only one limb for a rifle was left long enough). Good deal for both of us.

 

[Pete G]

You may not have got the joke....
George Washington chopping down the Cherry tree
“He cannot tell a lie.”
Da-dump-dump—-ting

When joke has to be explained, it’s not very good.
Carry on and thanks for the compliment.

George blamed Popeye. ”I cannot tell a lie pop; I chopped down the cherry tree.”

 

[PathfinderNC]

I would get rid of that hump by bringing down the top of the wrist, which might require you to bend the barrel tang downward a bit.

 

[54ball]

Ya I got it. He too cut down a cherry tree. Bragging on the wife. She paid me 350 and I got the wood (was thinking smoking chips so only one limb for a rifle was left long enough). Good deal for both of us.

It depends on how big that limb is.
Are you trying for half stock or full stock.
You might find that you can only get pistols out of it.
You could try cutting it
In slabs to see that you have.
It really needs to dry for a couple of years.

 

[54ball]

I would get rid of that hump by bringing down the top of the wrist, which might require you to bend the barrel tang downward

 

[54ball]

I would get rid of that hump by bringing down the top of the wrist, which might require you to bend the barrel tang downward a bit.

Thanks....
Right now the rifle is still partially in the square.
This was a preliminary shape to get the lock panel defined so I can transfer it to the side plate side.

OK
The top a free hand drawing.....
I was fooling around and wanted to “see it” in two dimensions. I got the stock line all wrong in the top drawing. I think it would be real easy to do that in real life with a step- toe rifle.

The bottom drawing was taken from the cut out pattern traced from the gun. Sadly I have lost the actual pattern.

I was a hold out as far as cell phones and when that old rifle came into the shop....
I did not get any photos.....
It was a brass mounted step-toe gun....unknown maker.
I did get a tracing and I did paw it a lot.
Probably 1790s-1820 ish.

Like a lot of guns from that period....,
They can have the profile of earlier guns.

I give you an example, an early John Bull rifle will fit ; almost perfectly in a JP Beck Pattern.

I was inspired a lot by Conrad Humble. There’s a step toe rifle by him. He used a big lock not unlike an early Ketland.

Another thing I remember about the old rifle was the unusually long fore arm. The fore arm/ lower forestock was long and showed a great bit of saddle or wagon seat wear.
I kick myself for not photo documenting that old gun.

This gives an idea of what the rifle will be.
From left to right....
The step-toe rifle ( The rifle formally known as the Alligator Horse)....46”barrel
The English influence rifle 44” barrel
Fumbelina (Bonewitz) a track set with a 42” barrel.

Sorry for the length.....
As it’s coming together due to final furniture choice...
I’m going now for the 1770s with a strong Honecker influence.....
Brass barreled rifle & 145.....
Maybe it’ll come together.

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Beauty is in the eye of the "beholder".
Thin is in but fat is where it's at!!

 

[Col. Batguano]

How thick is your web? That makes all the difference in how svelte the final product comes out. And yeah, get rid of the hump. The wrist should (with most styles) start bending right at the end of the barrel. You can't bend the plug / tang there, so you have to file it. Not. a big deal since the tang is about 1/4" thick, which is about 2x as thick as it needs to be. You'll wind up thinning it some, which "don't hurt nuthin'".

 

[54ball]

How thick is your web? That makes all the difference in how svelte the final product comes out. And yeah, get rid of the hump. The wrist should (with most styles) start bending right at the end of the barrel. You can't bend the plug / tang there, so you have to file it. Not. a big deal since the tang is about 1/4" thick, which is about 2x as thick as it needs to be. You'll wind up thinning it some, which "don't hurt nuthin'".

Hey everyone,
I appreciate the feedback.
Next up right now is bringing the lower forestock down close “in the square’.
I have my lock panel defined and I need to prepare the side plate side also.

On this step toe rifle I feel that the tang to comb nose and the trigger to rear finial of the trigger guard ( where it meets the step ) makes or breaks this type of rifle.

A lot of things meet here. It’s tricky.
It looks to me the step toes went two ways through the years.
The later Honecker family rifles have a bulbous obvious step.
The Brass Barreled Rifle and 145 have a subdued step.
Still the later “Cumberlands” Jacob Young... Humble brothers are stepped but it’s almost hidden and lost in the trigger guard.
A Conrad Humble rifle shows a step on the lock side but it’s not there on the side plate side.
I prefer the BBR and 145. I want the shape of this rifle to “fall” between these two.

The hump....
I have to be really careful.
The BBR shows less of a hump.
145 shows more of a hump.
The old rifle I got the tracing from has a little hump
Anyway as I work the tang to comb line I’ll tweak this some...... very carefully.

 

[rchas]

Looking good...

I too, struggle with my rifles looking too "chunky" although I have made significant improvements. I keep trying to remember advice from another maker: "Keep taking the wood off until you think you've ruined it, then take off a smidge more..."

 

[54ball]

Now the lock is not down. I actually lost the first Ketland. That hurt. I need to file the plate and tweak the new lock to drop in.

Ok
You can see one of my mistakes.
I had a pretty big chip out of the lock mortise when in letting the lock. That chunk below the bolster and above the spring came out with a little bit of the barrel channel.
I’m going to have to glue in a piece under the barrel.
One reason for that breakout was a rookie mistake Inletting this barrel. It was my first swamped barrel to inlet and I dug a hole in front of the breech.
When you lift a barrel out you can make a false mark if the barrel levers or cantilevers out of the stock. This false mark will cause you to dig a hole as the bottom flat leaves a print.

I’m studying the hump.

 

[Col. Batguano]

You know what you're doing. This isn't your first build. I'm confident you know what's "correct" and what isn't, and, more importantly, the how's and why's of what to do and what not to do. We're all anxious to see your progress reports as you move forward.

I've always felt that paying attention to the profile of the stock at the trigger guard / plate area controlled a lot of the "look" of the wrist. Where does the stock start curving toward the butt? Just behind the front foot of the TG? At the trigger? Behind the trigger? Somewhere in between? How sharp is the bend? It all makes a difference as you know. I like to work on the bottom part first before I get too far along in profiling the top, but it's all connected.

 

[54ball]

I hesitate to post because right now it’s in the awkward ugly stage and trufully I have made some mistakes.

Challenging architecture!!!

Even if it’s not as executed as well as I wish so far, it will be an interesting rifle.

Ok, lots of things going on here.

The worm track that runs right down the center of cheek. It kind of interrupts the visual “flow” if you know what I mean. I have to ignore it.
The longish, almost snake like wrist...
The stepped toe...
The 17th Century-ish features....
The stepped cheek, 3 steps at the butt...
The looooooong cheek piece cut......
A moulding line/cheek cut the runs from just above the toe at the buttplate all the way to below the side panel. I may or may not go that far with it. This is not the buttstock moulding line, this line is all part of the cheek. This runs above the buttstock moulding.

OK
I made a mistake where the comb meets the wrist.
I cut this in too sharp. Maybe I can work some of this out as it’s still too fat.
A lot of things come together here and I still have not “ figured it all out”.

It’s almost like connect the dots.....
Let’s say A and C are “knowns”.
If A and C are executed well, hopefully B will appear.
Now if B is weak, hopefully a strong A and C will minimalize the weakness of B.
^^^^
This sounds good, hopefully there is some truth here.

OK.....

I showed what I have going on to a master builder.
“ Ahhhh, it’s like the Brass Barreled Rifle”.
^^^^
Well that’s something, it was recognized.

He also said this......
“ The Brass Barreled Rifle is not as big as it looks. It looks massive in photographs, very robust. It’s not a small gun by any means but it’s much different in person.”

When building from photographs the mind’s eye sees features larger than they are. Also somewhere between the brain and the hands, there is an additional enlargement or over emphasis of these features.

I believe this is why lock panels are way to large (even on good contemporary work) and carving features can be too high, too big and out of whack.....
It’s natural to overdo features when working from photos.
This is why seeing these old guns in person is so important.
Most of us can’t do this, so be aware.

The buttplate is not quite as crooked as it looks in the lower photo. It may be off a little but not that bad. It’s not near as crooked as The Real Woodsrunner.

Up next for this one....
Lots of wood still has to come off, humps and bumps smoothed.
I may finish the lock and side panels, thin the forestock, set the guard and trigger.
The guard has to go where the guard has to go....this is a known.

More to come.....
It’s still too fat.

 

[54ball]

How thick is your web?

1/8 at the muzzle. About 3/16 at the breech.

You know what you're doing. This isn't your first build. I'm confident you know what's "correct" and what isn't, and, more importantly, the how's and why's of what to do and what not to do. We're all anxious to see your progress reports as you move forward.

I've always felt that paying attention to the profile of the stock at the trigger guard / plate area controlled a lot of the "look" of the wrist. Where does the stock start curving toward the butt? Just behind the front foot of the TG? At the trigger? Behind the trigger? Somewhere in between? How sharp is the bend? It all makes a difference as you know. I like to work on the bottom part first before I get too far along in profiling the top, but it's all connected.

I may not know exactly what I’m doing but I can fake it.
Now I’m an apprentice. I have inlet many, many locks, tons of file work, Inlet barrels, cut ramrod grooves, drilled ramrod holes, cut lugs.... sights in.....lots of work on many guns.......
So, it’s not my first build but as far as a rifle with my name on it.....
This is the second.

The stock really starts it curve in the trigger guard bow in front of the trigger.
The rear foot of the trigger guard is a known. It has to go where it has to go.

This bottom curve of the wrist needs to be tweaked. A little goes a long way here.
I may work on this curve ( bottom of the wrist....) This will “lift” that step toe some. The rear foot of the trigger guard has to go there at that transition.
Getting that area done will help with the start of the buttstock, especially on the bottom. This is going to help with this unique cheek.