TOTW vs TVM

[Greebe]

I finally got the money saved up to buy a small caliber flintlock. Hooray finally. :grin:

I think I have finally decided on going with a .36 cal in one of the two rifles below. (please don't try to change my mind on caliber, it took long enough to decide on the .36) :haha:

TOTW Colonial Longrifle -- $550 ish depending on options. Can be picked up in person.

vs

TVM Early Virginia -- $499+$50 shipping = $549 to my door.

The TOTW comes with brass hardware and many more options. I can get a 36" or 42" barrel and a Golden Age Chambers or English Durs Egg L&R locks.

The TVM comes in steel only with Large Siler and the only option here is in barrel length again between a 36" or 42".

Both come with non-inlet stock. The TVM is ready to ship the TOTW has many parts that are 90+ days on back order which is a big negative.

I know that brass is probably more period correct, but I kind of like the idea of steel better. I have a .54 flintlock with brass that I really don't care for the look that much.

I have not decided on barrel length. The 36" would be lighter an maybe a little more manoeuvrable. The 42" might be more balanced, or maybe not since the small bore is going to be fairly heavy. What do you thing?

What do you guys opinions based on my comments?

Thanks,
Greebe

Oh and a picture of a brass TVM Early Virginia, just for good measure.

 

[Vaino]

If you can stand the wait time, I'd go w/ TOW. The Chambers Golden Age flintlock plus the brass hardware stand out as good choices.....the Chambers lock has a lifetime warranty. and the brass is HC. If'n I was you, the 42" bbl would be a good choice.

Possibly the delay w/ TOW is the precarved stock, but this might be a good thing...a freshly cut stock shouldn't have any twisting or warpage.

The Siler lock from TVM....who asembled it? If it isn't Chambers, I'd pass on it.

Of course I can't guess at your impatience quotient, but judging from other similar posts, the TVM is probably in your future.....Fred

 

[galamb]

36" is more than enough barrel in a straight profile. It will look a little "stubby" in either design you are looking at, but certainly no more(wrong) than a straight 42" barrel.

A straight 42" barrel has a whole lot of weight hangin' out in front of the "typical" balance point (which is generally in the vicinity of the entry thimble).

You could add weight to the butt to compensate and balance things out, but you will definitely end up with a heavier rifle.

The Chambers Golden Age lock is probably up in the top 2 or 3 locks currently on the market - sorry Siler fan's, the GA IS superior according to Jim Chambers and he is the one who makes both of them.

If you prefer the steel, go that route.

Both of these are "generic" rifles so it would hard for anyone to argue that they couldn't be made in either brass or steel.

However, both would have originally been built with, minimally, a 42" swamped barrel, with 44" not unheard of. Since you are not going that route then almost anything goes.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks for the reply. The TOTW probably would be a nicer option as you know what you are getting, as with the TVM he does not really say what any of the makers are. That is a good point.

I figured that the TVM might be supplied with a good Chambers lock and good barrel, however if there were, they would probably state as much.

Where we are moving next month is only a few hours from TOTW, so that is a good option. Then I could go in and look at all the parts and make a better choice then just looking over the net.

The only part that I would prefer on the TOTW is steel furniture. I just think it looks nicer then brass. Why does everyone like brass so much?

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[jamesthomas]

You do realize that the TVM's come with a plain stock and these are their Special Builders Kit's don't you? also that TVM early Virgina looks like it has a premium stock on it which costs around $175.00 more. Btw, I also like the steel on the rifles also. I'm saving up right now to get TVM's Iron Pennsylvania Kit myself. Already have the barrel, and lock. Also I would get the 36 inch barrel if your set on a .36 cal. the 42 incher will be too muzzle heavy IMHO.

 

[Greebe]

36" is more than enough barrel in a straight profile. It will look a little "stubby" in either design you are looking at, but certainly no more(wrong) than a straight 42" barrel.

A straight 42" barrel has a whole lot of weight hangin' out in front of the "typical" balance point (which is generally in the vicinity of the entry thimble).

You could add weight to the butt to compensate and balance things out, but you will definitely end up with a heavier rifle.

The Chambers Golden Age lock is probably up in the top 2 or 3 locks currently on the market - sorry Siler fan's, the GA IS superior according to Jim Chambers and he is the one who makes both of them.

If you prefer the steel, go that route.

Both of these are "generic" rifles so it would hard for anyone to argue that they couldn't be made in either brass or steel.

However, both would have originally been built with, minimally, a 42" swamped barrel, with 44" not unheard of. Since you are not going that route then almost anything goes.

Thanks. I would like to keep the rifle as light as possible so that it is nice to carry in the woods. That is why I had thought of a 36" barrel. I do however want it too look right as well. I would hate to get a 42" and have it very muzzle heavy and need to add weight to the buttstock as that would be doing the complete opposite of what I am looking for.

The GA Chambers looks nice. I also like the look of the Durs Egg, but it seems most people recommend the Chambers.

I would probably go with a TOTW kit, but I really would like steel and that is not an option. Maybe I can do the kit and substitute steel furniture? That really si the main reason I am considering the TVM over the TOTW. However it seems like I am going to get better components from TOTW.

So neither 36" or 42" straight barrels are going to be very period correct eh? Bummer, however that is the only option it looks like.

Thanks again.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks I did know that is was the Special builders kit, but other then the non-inletd stock what is the difference between other kits? Thanks

 

[galamb]

If you are going to be in driving distance from Track you absolutely could put together a "box of parts" in steel to go with whichever "non-inlet" stock you choose.

The Track "kit" is just a bunch of parts they "suggest" to add to their Lancaster stock.

You can go ahead and get steel parts for the stock since you are going to be fitting them yourself anyhow.

And as I stated, 36" is plenty long enough in a straight barrel. The balance stays good.

Here's a pic of an Ohio I did a while back. It has a 50 cal, 36", 7/8" ATF straight GM barrel (barrel wt. 4 1/4 lbs - which is actually a hair lighter than a 36", 36 cal, 13/16" ATF which tips the scales at 4 1/2 lbs).

Anyhow, you get a decent balance with the 36" barrel. From the back of the breech to the rear of the inlet pipe is 12" on the below rifle.

(ya, it looks a little funky but it really is balancing on that mason jar sitting on the bench)

 

[Patocazador]

TVM only lists a large Siler? A small Siler would be more like it .. by Chambers.

 

[azmntman]

TOTW = EXCELLENT customer service, can not comment on the other option. You waited this long....? Get what you want.

 

[azmntman]

Oh and I thank the Lord I am not driving distance from TOTW, I'd be in the po house for sho :grin:

 

[tenngun]

Since you want to go in a .36, and your gun won't be 'perfect' since your going with a strieght barrle, can you go for a slim barrel such as a 3/4 or 11/16? I have a 42-7/8-.50 in a stright and it is not too heavy.
Don't feel too bad about steel furnuture as it was not unheard of. I cant say that I have ever seen a stright barrel from this time frame...but no one is perfect so you can pick you imperfections and still have a good looking almost h c rifle.
I have heard lots of good things about TVM, but I can say from experince TOTW has always been up front and top of the field for me.How ever they are in bussiness to sell thier stuff...not to make the most hc rifle kit. They do give you lots of options to dress your gun right, its up to you to do the research and pick your varations from 100%. I know I,ve made more then one mistake...of corse that gives you a chance to build a nother one.

 

[Zonie]

It's all a matter of opinion but for a full sized rifle I think the large locks look best.
The small Siler is more suited to a boys rifle or one of the larger pistols.

Greebe: You are aware that all of the kits sold by the various suppliers like TOTW and TVM are just a box of castings, semi roughed out wood and a operating lock and trigger that will need to have threaded holes located and tapped aren't you?
They are very far from being a drop together kit.

These "kits" will require at least 120 hours of actual work to get into a finished condition.
Most take me over 150 hours and I've built over 15 of them over the years.

I only mention this because I've seen far too many of these "kits" left in a closet to gather dust once the builder found out how much work and knowledge it takes to assemble one.

 

[tenngun]

So true, did a NWG last year, just about the 'easiest' build you can do, and I had over 100 hours in it.

 

[Alden]

I would NOT buy a gun from Matt of TVM sight unseen, unhandled -- he has proved untrustworthy.

 

[azmntman]

Alden knows...there you have it!

 

[longcruise]

Several posts have touched on this, but it bears repeating, All of these"kits" are a collection of parts. These same parts are offered by many different suppliers. So, the kit is merely a convenience for the builder.

most of the track stocks are supplied by Pecatonica River, but, pecatonica themselves offers a greater variety. Track is, IMO, pricy on stocks for what you get.

be sure to pay attention to the difference between sand castings and investment castings.

if you forego some luxuries such as premade thimbles, nose caps, toe plate, side plate, escutcheons, trigger, trigger plate, fully shaped stock, sights, etc., you will gain alot of flexibility. Same goes for the stock. If you are willing to go with a blank with a barrel channel a ram rod groove, you can easily go to a swamped barrel and still not get overly expensive.

I am not a skilled or talented builder, but one hard lesson I have learned is that the less that is done for you the fewer problems you will have.

 

[Treestalker]

AGREED. My first longrifle was on a plain maple, barrel and ramrod inletted stock with a .36 cal. 13/16' straight 42' barrel and an Ashmore flintlock. Turned out good because I had a good teacher, and kept it plain (Southern Mtn) :wink: . Get all your components before you begin to build, this helps you lay out your gun and maintain good lines. Try to get with someone who has experience to coach you. You'll love it because you built it. :thumbsup: Good luck,Tree.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Since there were so many responses since last night I am just going to do a general response to everyone.

As far as a time line goes for getting a kit, I would like to get something this summer to start working on. My birthday is coming up soon but we will be moving next month, so I am not in a huge rush to get it until we get moved.

So it seems like the consensus is to get my parts from TOTW. I am fine with that as long as I can still get steel parts from them. That was my main reason for looking at the TVM kit, is the steel furniture. I know it might not be as HC as brass but I like it better.

I am aware that these are not a drop in kit. That is not something I want anyways. I got one of those many years ago and was not happy with the fit and it was a bit boring because it really was just a finish and assemble type of deal. I built a cap and ball revolver when I was about 12 which had all the rough casting that had to be filed, fit, finish. It turned out nicely and was a fun project.

Also it seems like you guys all mention that the kit from TOTW is not really HC because of the straight barrel. I would like the swamped better but it was not an option.

Would I be better off just getting the barrel, lock and then find a stock that I could inlet to the barrel and lock?

I do not mind piecing together my own kit if I know everything that I will need, which I could find out by looking at the TOTW kits.

BTW here is the rifle I would really like but do not have the funds for right now.

Tracks Isaac Haines 1770 Lancaster (in steel)

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[Snakebite]

I have a rifle from TVM and found they are very honest and easy to work with. They gave me exactly what I asked for. I could not be happier with them.