TOTW vs TVM

[galamb]

Perhaps at this point you should "suck back and reload" as we used to say in the military.

German silver was not available until somewhat "after" the Golden Age (which some say ended around 1820'ish).

GS was widely used on rifles built in the late 1830's, 40's and into the 50's.

If you are "dead set" against brass, which was "cheaper" and historically correct back in the time frame you seem to be looking at, you should take some time to find a specific rifle or rifles that were originally iron mounted (they didn't steel mount them either - ok, minor point but most furniture now is steel and no more HC than mounting it in place of brass).

I know for a fact that the Sheetz boys (there was a whack of them brothers, cousins etc) in the Winchester/Shenandoah VA area, prior to and during the Golden Age that were making some iron mounted rifles that were fairly "fancy". They also went "all out" with brass, sterling silver wire inlay etc.

There is a (famous) JJ Sheetz rifle that was used in the battle of New Orleans that was a fast twist (1:36), 38 caliber. So there were small caliber rifles out there in the late 1700's/early 1800's, just perhaps NOT typically in the couple designs you have been looking at.

The point I'm getting at is IF (IF) you are looking for something HC don't limit your choices to the three or four offerings you see at Track/TVM.

If you are going to do most of the work yourself, places like Knob Mountain pretty much has a pre-carved stock available for just about every rifle you could possibly trip over.

If you don't care about HC then do whatever you like.

IF you think that you will want HC at "some point in the future", take your time, spend the few extra bucks now (even if that means waiting a bit to add money to the "rifle kitty") and do it right the first time or you may end up with a rifle that never leaves the house.

If you truly don't care, make whatever you like and forget about what any of us here advise, think or suggest...

 

[Greebe]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I would rather build a kit, then buy as I am typically not satisfied with bought items as I am anal about fit and finish. So if I were to buy I would have to get a custom which would be quite expensive. Besides what would be the fun in buying one ready made?

One reason I was favouring steel / iron furniture is because I am thinking of making my own furniture. I have been blacksmithing as a hobby since I was an early teen and think it would be a fun part of the project. Besides The rifle would mean more to me if I Can make as many parts as possible.

I have been looking at some more brass mounted flintlocks and think that ones with heavily muted patinas look nice. I don't know if you could force a patina to this degree, but if you could I would be OK with brass. I just do not like shiny brass on my weapons.

Here is an example:

BTW I am not looking to make a fancy rifle this time around. I am wanting a nice but user grade flintlock that I am not worried to take out and use a lot. I do not want a patchbox either as I never use the one on my .54 cal.

I will most likely use plain maple and adhere to the KISS philosophy. I want a rifle that you would have found in a average persons homestead, not a rich persons collection. After all I am just a homesteader working the land.

Again I think I would be happy with antiqued brass, but I also think it would be a lot of fun to forge my own parts. I am probably being over optimistic about the time I will have to put into this as I am also building a house this summer as well so this will probably get bumped till this winter. :blah:

Anyways I might skip the kit and just order the lock, stock, and barrel and worry about the rest later.

Thanks guys,
Greebe

 

[54ball]

Take a look at some of theses sets.
Link
The Beck set on the last page is a deal IMHO. The barrel is fully inlet except for the tang. On most sets the barrel is not inlet requiring final fit especially at the breech where fit is the most critical. Also the buttplate is inlet and included.

Believe it or not, there are advantages to not having the lock inlet. It's gives you the freedom of lock choice. Another reason,unfortunately, is that the lock is can be slightly in the wrong place causing unexpected and frustrating problems for the builder, especially a new builder. Many experienced builders have said that a fully inlet precarve can actually be harder to build.

Also take a look also at all the stock patterns available.

If you want to forge iron, you may want to research some very early SW Virginia,NC & TN made rifles.

Link Hale 1970

I'll share a project I was considering. The G.B rifle in figures 2&3 is the earliest iron rifle Hale had examined. The furniture resembles brass but in iron. I lost interest because there is evidence that this rifle was a re stock so it may not be as early as some of it's components. This rifle can be viewed online at the ALR museum.

Rice 46" or Burton 47" barrel tang filed to a point.

Chambers late Ketland lock

Davis set triggers

TOTW Iron Lancaster Trigger guard modified with file work.

TOTW octagonal iron pipes or theses could be made.

TOTW iron nose Cap or homemade

TOTW Iron Lancaster Side plate with file work or homemade

To really make a proper 2 piece butt plate for this rifle would require forming the heel and the slight crescent plate from two pieces if sheet metal. Once formed to the proper shape the pieces are wired or riveted together and placed in a gas or coal forge. A piece of copper covered with borax is placed on the inside joint. When the copper flows the plate is removed from the heat. After cooling it's cleaned up with a file and tweaked a little if any warpage occurred.
The Iron TOTW Armstrong plate may can be made passable with some file work if you did not want to make your own.

Since this rifle has a slight Roman Nose The Bonewitz Stock from Knob Mountain was the best candidate I found for this project IMHO. While not an exact match it's very very close. Besides I really did not want an exact Bench copy.

See what I'm getting at, doing the research and building up your own rifle with the best available parts.

It's really fun for me to study a grand old rifle, then hit the catalogs and see if it can be recreated with available parts.

Model railroad folks call this Kit Bashing.

 

[Vaino]

With all the "advice" you've rec'd, it seems you're not as "definite" on what you'd like to build as you stated in your OP.

Many wouldn't continue w/ this research and would fall back on the "easy way out"....."it's your rifle, so do w/ it what you will". Buying a bunch of helter-skelter parts might seem easy, but the final product is "nowhere".

The .36 cal requirement really limits your choices....not trying to change your mind, but be aware that building a LR w/ a "skinny" bbl is difficult to pull off, especially the wrist area.

Too bad Chambers doesn't have a parts set {kit} in 36 cal because it would be an easy, HC choice. His "kits" are modeled after originals and the components are the best on the market...especially his locks.

Well....good luck and keep us posted w/ your final decision....which afterall, is a big part of the fun....Fred

 

[54ball]

Going back to kits, here's one that may meet your wants.
Link PR Beck Boys
These guys supply TOTW with a lot of their stuff.

 

[kaintuck]

Greene,
One more option, get a barrel, send it to Dave keck after choosing a profile from his web site....call dunlops woods, and have them send a #5redmaple blank to Dave...$120.00~
Dave will inlet and drill the RR, profile it, and mail it back....$220.00 or so....them buy you steel parts......


Other than this idea.....my 1st rifle flinter was a TVM and I still buy steel parts from them......I like them!!! :v

Oh, and it's a 42" 50cal GM .....balances fine for me to shoot liter bottles at 100yds!!! :blah:

Do what you feel!!! It's your rifle.......
Marc

 

[vulture]

I ordered a replacement stock for my Lyman Great Plains rifle and it showed a 90 day wait, after a month or so I needed to talk to them about another matter and while I had the nice lady on the phone asked about my stock and if she had any idea of delivery time to them. She told me that the 90 days is just an estimate because they are at the mercy of the manufacture, so it could be another 60 days or longer, or they could show up the next day. With in two weeks I received notification that my stock had shipped, so you might want to think about Track and their 90 wait. If you are in a "bit" of a hurry you might give them a call and see if they can give you any idea of when the items might be available. I really like Track, have used them for years, but this is one drawback to working with them. Good luck.

 

[Birddog6]

Well.... I think several things need addressed here.

1: You are talking about building a rifle you have never shouldered. :shake: So you are Guessing.... it will fit you & etc. Why spend $600-1000 bucks & 100-200 labor on a Guess.... Just because some guy on the internet built one & it fit them has No Bearing What-so-ever on what fits YOU.
If you are close to TOW, go there & Shoulder a rifle as such. Take one of their precarved stocks of same style, tape a 36" straight, then a 42" straight, then a "A" or "B" .36 cal. barrels to it & Shoulder it.
If they don't want to take the time to let you try dif. stocks/barrels/etc. you need to deal with someone else.
You may find one that fits & handles as you wish. You may find out this rifle doesn't fit you at all, thus need a dif. style & barrel & etc.

Picking a rifle from a picture & spending allot of $ on it, is allot like playing "Pin the tail on the Donkey". Very slim chance of putting the tail where it belongs... :shake:

2: You want HC & you don't want HC. You need to make up your mind what you want. :idunno: If you want HC it will have brass trim, simple as that. But if you really want one in Iron trim, build it in Iron trim. 99% of the people looking at it won't know if it is HC or not, as most of them don't know what a HC rifle even looks like, nor do they really care.
(Also note: Tip Curtis will have just about any trim you want in Iron or Brass, just email him a photo from the TOW catalog & he can most likely match it for you)

3: IF you buy a Parts Set and buy some of the parts one place & the other parts someplace else, you must Be Sure the rifle was preinlet for same parts. Example: Jim Chambers Lancaster trim is Not... going to be the same as TOW trim, thus the stock is preinlet differently. So if you buy TOW stock, and Chambers trim, you could run into a issue, as in gaps in inletting, etc. It is not good when ya spend 150-300 bucks on a new stock & immediately have to start gluing in wood pieces. If you are inexperienced builder, it is most likely gonna be Obvious that you had issues with the build & they are gonna stand out like a sore thumb. Course, you could cover it up with Black Rustoleum... :shocked2: :bull:
Thus get it ALL from the same place if it is a Preinlet or Precarved stock, or know for sure the trim you buy is exactly same style & shape as what the stock was intended for.

4: You have saved to buy these parts for this rifle. Don't settle for something Questionable, to save a few bucks. If you need to save for something else a little longer, Do So. :slap: Don't settle for less than you want.

5: I will never again wait on a backorder from TOW. I was gonna build a rifle for a guy years ago & he Insisted in buying his own parts. 1st problem was when the parts arrived, half of them were missing & also wrong parts. Keep in mind the stock is Preinlet, you cannot just toss ANY part on there ya want, it won't fit. 2nd issue was I had no barrel or lock. Well, thought that was OK as the build was 6 mo away. 6 mo later, promises every month but still no parts. I called Tip & he had the barrel, lock, trim I needed, etc.
That was the last time I let a customer buy the parts..... I buy the parts or I don't build it.

In closing, think on this some more. Forget what fits others or what others like, this rifle is for YOU & it is your money. Spend it on something that fits you & something that pleases your eye.

Keith Lisle

 

[Greebe]

Thanks again for all the responses.

I think you guys are figuring out that I am still trying to decide what to build. I guess I had just figured that TOTW would have been putting together HC rifle kits and that my decision was more simple then it now seems.

This is part of the reason that I ended up not building a rifle this fall when I started looking at kits. I just feel that as someone new to the HC side of things, it is just to complicated working out my first rifle without anyone in person to talk to and hold some rifles.

All I really know is that I want to build a rifle. This is something I have wanted to do for a long time. I also know that I would really like to have the rifle to shoot and hunt small game with.

However I am starting to feel like I did this fall. While I want the rifle to be as HC as possible, I feel like I also want a rifle that is built like I want it regardless of HC'ness. So I am having a dilemma trying to balance the two, but it sounds like this is not really possible.

I am starting to wonder if it isn't going to be 100% HC then if there is any reason to even bother as it is going to be wrong with the historian crowd and as you guys say the other 99% of people aren't going to know the difference anyway.

This is starting to feel aggravating to me.

BTW, I am starting to wonder if I should go with .40 cal now.

Thanks

 

[azmntman]

99% HC and 45% HC are both still not HC so stop fretting and build what YOU want HOW you want and you will be a happy man! (Unless it turns out like my first build of a CVA KY kit that took me all of 6 hours :shocked2: , but hey I was bit bad and 12 yrs old so I was happy! )

 

[Greebe]

True true. I guess if we want to be really anal about HC'ness then nothing anyone is building is HC since barrels are made of modern steel and not forged from a flat bar of wrought iron, locks are now investment cast instead of hand forged, and a lot of the brass parts are wax cast instead of sand cast.

I might just go as UN HC just for fun to mess with people. Hehe just kidding. :blah:

 

[Greebe]

So the more I think about this one the more I am wondering if I should abandon the HC thing for my first build and just build something that I want.

Chances are that I am never going to do the rendezvous thing and if I ever do, by then I should have a better idea for what I want that is HC.

So I am back to my original Ideal and might just get one of the kits, build it, and have fun, instead of stressing out about it being "correct" and never getting around to buying anything.

Thanks,
Greebe

P.S. Does anyone know where I can get a fiberglass muzzleloading stock that would be HC for the early Lancaster period? HEHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blah: :youcrazy:

 

[Vaino]

Aah....rationalization and build what you will....most won't know the difference, anyways. True?.... you bet.

I can truly say that I've never built a "Frankenstein gun"....I've come close but never did.

The thought struck me and I do think once in awhile, that a "Frankenstein gun" would be a project that would take a lot of research.....mainly to amass components that would grossly violate any semblance of being HC and would in many respects border on the ridiculous.

We all know the story of Dr. Frankenstein's creation....the monster who was composed of many "body parts" from other humans and when "patched" together, was something that was not a member of the human race.

My "Frankenstein gun" {the MD who created the monster also lent him his name forever} would be such a monster to some but a "loving creation" to many unknowing souls.

But...ignorance is bliss and "ugliness" or "beauty" is truly in the eyes of the beholder.....Fred

 

[Greebe]

Thanks. I do not think a steel stocked lancaster style rifle would really be that ugly or Frankensteinish, but I guess that is just my thought though as a layman of the HC world of muzzleloading. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I would only say the unless you're trying to enlist in a specialty re-enactment group with REALLY high standards or make a display for a serious museum, go with what pleases you visually. If it's not quite HC. so what? Unless you're willing to hammer parts from old Fahrvergnugen bumpers, nothing you build will ever be 100% HC...even then, Fahrvergnugen bumpers aren't HC steel compared to period gun parts. Yes, I'm deliberately being goody just to make the point, build what you like.

There are some really serious builders out there who strive for historical perfection and can get about as close as you'll ever see outside museums and armories. One of that group is Eric Kettenburg and reading the articles on his site is an amazing trip through history. Check it out and see what real dedication it takes to duplicate period work. In the meantime, enjoy a quick visual treat and build what makes you happy! :wink: :thumbsup:

(Obviously, some of the stuff that's worked it's way onto the page is from Lord knows where, but most of it is Eric's work at duplicating fit, finish and style of period guns.)
https://www.google.com/search?q=er...7TmN_OtsQSfvIBA&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=667

 

[Treestalker]

Please allow me to jump back in and agree with Wes. You must please only yourself. The best way to accomplish that is to know your limitations. Building a longrifle from scratch is a long process requiring many different techniques and skills. Most of us don't have a seven year apprenticeship under a German master. :shocked2: BUT, you can take a blank of good plainer wood, a really nice straight barrel, a lock that really works and make most of the rest yourself and have a decent gun. Don't try to be a Peter Berry your first time at bat. And at the end of the day, you will shine, and so will your handmade (mostly) longrifle. Patience is the name of the game. And if you build your own gun, And Use It, you will have my respect and that of countless others.Tree :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Pete G]

Since we are dealing with a rifle that is based on historical examples, why build something that is not historical? It costs no more and takes no longer to build a correct example than it does to build something that is not. Right now historically correct may not mean that much to you, but if you become ensnared in this hobby, it will eventually look terrible to you and you will not like it. Of course that is a perfect excuse for building the next one, and the next one, and the next one.........

 

[Greebe]

OK, so I think I have finally decided on what I am doing.

I think I am going to wait to get a kit until we get moved up to MN and I can go walk into Track of the Wolf. Then I can check out things a little more and start buying what I want.

I called Chambers and ordered a Golden Age Flintlock. I guess they are in the process of putting a batch together right now as they have been out of stock for a while. They said I should probably be able to get in on this batch and have it in around 2 weeks. If I can't get in on this batch I will have to wait 4-6 weeks. Boo... I am keeping my fingers crossed.

So I am finally on my way to building my first qaulity flintlock. I am sure whatever I build will be much nicer then my .54 cal flintlock Investarm Hawken rifle kit I did back in the 90's.

I feel good that I am finally on my way. IT will probably be a few months will I get all the parts to start the build, but at least the ball is rolling now.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

 

[Vaino]

Your "plan" sounds good and the Chambers Golden Age is a wise choice. Good luck w/ your build.....Fred

 

[user 922]

Well said, "54". Greebe, what we don't know is you skill level. Believe me, a "kit", or more accurately, a "parts set" involves much more than assembling and finishing. If you haven't done it already, buy a book and understand what's involved. It's not like a model airplane. I built my first rifle from a blank and bought the parts I needed. I started with a half stock 1860s period gun because it was p/c with a smaller caliber, straight 36" barrel and didn't require any carving and engraving. It is also correct to use German silver hardware for a gun representing this period. I have never seen a "longrifle" of the golden age period with an original 36" barrel.