Tower lock

[Tanker]

Hi,
It looks to me to be a repro lock by Miroku.

dave

Thanks for the info.

 

[Pete G]

Hi,
It looks to me to be a repro lock by Miroku.

dave

...and lots of rusty pits.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Haha you did well to avoid it, it's to me a reproduction made in India lock, mine had the fancy Xmas tree bit welded onto the frizzen spring too, I cut it off....I bought the Indian crap blundebus at auction £27 I bid, I was only on £42 a week in 1927 I did not bid wisely , ha ha Fortunately after all theses years I took it apart to salvage some bits, actualy with some epoxy and a bit of work it works quite well Well done you chose wisely, but keep looking

Kindest regards from across the pond from London , home of Birmingham the worlds greatest gun makers Ha ha So pleased you gave it away Maybe we will both buy a Nepalese locks given time, I wish you well Gordon

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
It is not made in India but by Miroku of Japan. As such it is far better made than any of those India made locks and the quality of the steel is excellent. You can turn it into a first rate lock if you consider it to be 3/4 finished. The internal parts can be polished, better fitted, and tuned to produce an excellent lock. In fact, I am using those internal parts to make a good Brown Bess lock but replacing the lock plate with a historically correct one.

dave

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I mean 1972 not 1927. Me with the hat my wife two sons , my 50 ft catameran we built.. , in our Rapido motorhome France the imposing 8 the century castle in Forages, worlds biggest sand dune nr and at Arcachon west cost France We wish you all well from uk.

Hi,
It is not made in India but by Miroku of Japan. As such it is far better made than any of those India made locks and the quality of the steel is excellent. You can turn it into a first rate lock if you consider it to be 3/4 finished. The internal parts can be polished, better fitted, and tuned to produce an excellent lock. In fact, I am using those internal parts to make a good Brown Bess lock but replacing the lock plate with a historically correct one.

dave

thats very interesting, Miroku make exceedingly good shotguns, but I did not know they were into Flint arms , I'll look them up.......we all do our best but don't know everything......

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Well Dave just been checking Miroku out Plenty on Google Seems they never made locks or guns, but were importing cheap stuff, probably from India, and selling it on......I found no good comments about quality or second hand price....I put the above bless lock up on my big screen and compared it with my Indian one, they seem to be identical, especially with the little tin tree branched welded to the frizzen Spring, as I said I cut mine off....we both have our own views so let's leave it as that, fortunately the buyer passed it by , as it was not an original bless lock....I see more Bess locks and guns at Holts auction than most outside of London, so I have a good idea of what to buy and what yo pass by.... nice meeting you regards Gordon 78

 

[Whitworth]

I saw it and passed too.

 

[Rudyard]

The Bakers series locks are not secondry quality when sent out they where very good locks . But they did mostly go too India and got worked to death & cobbled up as India was & is very good at doing to guns. I bought 12 locks in various but restorable states in Kabool 1969 for the princely sum of 100 Afghanis about ten shillings each . World Wide Arms where asking 6 or so pounds then . How they ask 200 plus pounds is supprizeing to me but 12 pounds a week was a decent wage then, now its that at least an hour .Or was last time I worked in UK .
The trouble with locks is you always need the style you don't have . And I'me given to make them these days certainly for the archaic sorts I like to make . Is that helpful? Probably not but its on topic. Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Made in Japan, that why it is stamped made in Japan. Gordon show me the sources of your information.

dave

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I remember in the 1960s a tea chest of Japanese swords at auction were £4 Shotguns 10 ,8 , 4g in exchange and mart were around £8 And flintlocks were broken up to sell the brass, my house 1968 £5.200 Now it's £550k how times are changed. I was wondering if theses locks were sent to India etc as unused reserve stock but rusty.....you had bess locks churned out in Birmingham , millions , then you had Bess locks and guns hand made for officers and gentlemen in London, you get this often with sniders also. You are into making locks, I am more into making barrels from tube or drilled , done some good barrels on my junk yard riffling machine , now due to uk licensing I am starting on oval smooth bores, done a lot of motorhome traveling in France, it's hunt the gunshop , but nothing, most have closed due to French legislation. Nice to chat stay safe. You must be like me now 34 but born in 1943. Ha ha

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Dave just type in Miroku Google loads of stuff......just because it's stamped made in Japan does not mean it was made there.........there is only one genuine Bess lock and it's made in Birmingham or London.....I have two genuine 1812-1820 Bess locks made in Birmingham, I just lost a London made one on eBay uk for £242 as above....and a crappy one made in India ...I think this discussion was about genuine antique locks ..........i also have a smaller brand new warrented lock, made around 1820 , bought at auction when the Birmingham factory closed down, it's on my .45 long rifle now .....I just completed a double barrel .6 smooth bore but used a pair of L&R locks

I wish you well all interesting stuff .....

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
So no source of information about Miroku Bess guns being from India. Just searched for Miroku like you said and nothing about importing from India. So please post the exact web site addresses that claim Miroku Brown Besses were made in India.

dave

 

[Tanker]

Just for more info. Here is a picture of the back side of the lock.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Tanker,
Yep, that is a Miroku lock made in Japan. Exactly like the one I have in my shop.

dave

 

[Gordoncourtney]

It's obvious Dave, Miroku would not say we import from India or elsewhere, it is an assumption on my part after studying the lock in question, and the forums and reports saying there was a period when Miroku were importing cheap guns, etc I looked at their website ...the only interest I have in Miroku was that I read they built shotguns for Browning when I was in the market for one , end of conversation.......the object of this forum was to ensure the buyer did not end up with a piece of reproduction crap at the Fair and guide him towards genuine Bess flintlock actions.......I wish you well

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Hello tanker that's a great photo of the inside of the lock, it confirms to me it was made in India as it is precisely the same as my Indian blunderbuss lock, Perhaps they imported from Miruko Ha ha

Studdy both photographs and come to your own conclusions Perhaps We can have a vote on the matter.

The great thing about our comments is you did not buy this crappy repro. Bess lock at the fair, you chose wisely, I wish you well .......it dosent matter who made it, who cares, It was a crappy lock only a fool would buy

I would add that I am starting to think about buying one of the Nepalieses locks mentioned earlier , problem it's luck of the draw if you get a decent one, It's possible they were sent out as spares and in fact are brand new unused locks for use as spares, guess you better get on your bike and pick out a decent one...

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I am kind of funning with you Dave, no harm meant.......to get votes on my side I put it to you why has the lock from the fair not got " made in Japan on it" So where was it made,???? I am not interested in reproduction locks other than L&R for my long rifles. I am convinced the lock at the fair was Indian made. I wish you well and to help others this is the inside of a genuine 1820-1820 bess improved stronger lock. Or known as east India lock. The one with the tape measure was the quality made London lock I lost for £240 on eBay uk.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

An email Fromm an historian
The East India Company had a large army so they sent a large number of British made muskets out there. The UK government also had Imperial troops there so you can add their muskets. After 1857 we kept the native regiments and native state troops one generation of guns behind so they didn't replace their smoothbore muskets until white troops all had Sniders. Then they were issued Sniders when white troops had Martinis.

After the Mutiny many of the mutineers fled to Nepal, surrendering their muskets on arrival and when we signed an alliance with Nepal we gave them guns. A lot of the Nepalese stuff was brought out by Atlanta Cutlery and IMA a few years ago. That's where most of the East India Company marked stuff is now coming from.

Once a market was established the Indians started faking everything. I think they've concentrated on Martinis, but I don't doubt there are also muzzle loaders with correct looking stamps coming off their production lines.

 

[Tanker]

I want to thank everyone for all the info. I maybe pretty good a shooting a muzzleloader but when it comes to IDing things and knowing what his correct is another.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Tanker,
You are welcome. The Miroku Besses were well respected by the reenactment community although they deviated from real Besses just like all the other commercial repros. However, the barrels and locks were made of good stuff. The barrels were known to be very good steel and safe and strong. The locks were made from good cast parts and functioned well. However, they benefited greatly by polishing and tweaking their fit. I have one right now from which I'll be using the internals to make either a pattern 1759 Marine musket or a pattern 1769 Brown Bess marked "Dublin Castle". I'll simply ditch the lock plate for a more historically accurate one from the Rifle Shoppe. I'll be using the Miroku barrel as well.

dave