Trade Gun Barrel Lengths

[dlemaster]

In view of the recent discussions on this forum about the length of trade gun barrels I'm posting this here, but maybe it belongs in Historical Documentation. I found this while looking for some other information for a friend last night. This is stuff I collected about 25 years ago.

I found S. James Gooding's research on the Hudson Bay Company papers which covers the period 1674 to 1781. 46,000 Northwest Guns were made in this 107 year period by 79 London England manufactures. After 1684 the greater number of these guns had 48" barrels; 40" barrels were a close second with a number of 36" barrels appearing after 1717. I found of particular note that Gooding says "No 54" barrels appeared after 1699". So it would seem longer barrels were an earlier feature.
I also found that in 1821 the Birmingham gun makers who supplied the North West Company were required to mark their barrels "LONDON" and the barrel lengths were standardized at 42", 36", and 30" and this continued throughout the Northwest Gun period.

As to cost; I found in the inventory of David Thompson who worked for the North West Company that he had "8 N W Guns (Northwest Guns) valued at 16 beaver apiece.

Goodings research was found in T. M. Hamiliton's
"Indian Trade Guns" 1960 pg 81-95.
Thompsons inventory was found in "David Thompson's Narrative of His Explorations in Western America 1784 - 1812" in the Champlain Society Publications 1916 vol. xii

I hope others find this as interesting and informative as I did.

Regards, Dave

 

[fklein]

Dave,
Thanks for posting the info. Do you know about common calibers or gauges and the time periods; e.g., 20 ga, 24 ga, 28 ga and when they were most likely manufactured? And/or what was the most likely barrel length and caliber combination?
Thanks,
Beowulf

 

[dlemaster]

I remember there was some minor information concerning calibers, I go back and check again tonight. I do recall that sometime in the early 18th century someone wrote to HBC and requested the guns to made at 59/100ths of an inch.
What I don't know is were they requesting the bore to be .59 or that the bore would take a ball of .59. If it was to take a ball of .59 dia then with the allowance for windage in the bore that would make them pretty close to 20 gauge.

Regards, Dave

 

[Okwaho]

Thanks for your post. I have been hunting the Missouri Archaeologist Vol. 22 for some time but had't looked recently and this book will bring my Hamilton publications up to five.
Tom Patton

 

[Mike Brooks]

Interesting stuff. I've always read that there were shorter barrel lengths made early on, as well as the more standard 48" or so, but so far archeological evidence and surving guns doesn't support the shorter barrels...."yet".
A trip thru Hamilton's book and all of the original guns I've seen always have 42" or longer barrels. I think all of the shorter ones I've seen I 've always suspected were shortened in their working lifetime rather than originally made short.
I have no doubt that there were shorter barreled guns made as your research indicates. Their survival rate seems to be even less than the longer barreled guns.

 

[dlemaster]

Mike
You have expressed my sentiments exactly. I thought the reference to 36' barrels quite interesting.

Okwaho
Even though it's out of the time period you portray you may be interested in another little tid bit I posted under Historical Documentation under the title Indian gunsmiths and use of rifles. I would be interested in your thoughts.

Regards, Dave

 

[bpollock_sr]

In the Book of Buckskinning IV on page 115 there is an illustration of an early English trade gun with a 36in. barrel.It is a .66 cal.and dates from the period of 1710-1720.

 

[Mike Brooks]

In the Book of Buckskinning IV on page 115 there is an illustration of an early English trade gun with a 36in. barrel.It is a .66 cal.and dates from the period of 1710-1720.

I'm at a disadvantage and don't thave that book, does anyone have a picture of that gun? I'd be very interested in seeing an english trade gun dated that early, 36" barrel or not.

 

[Okwaho]

In the Book of Buckskinning IV on page 115 there is an illustration of an early English trade gun with a 36in. barrel.It is a .66 cal.and dates from the period of 1710-1720.

Mike,I think that gun is either a restocked NW gun with a curly maple stock and typical NW gun guard and sideplate or it's a composite gun. Either way I would guess it to be in the second half of the 18th century based on the limited views of the gun but an original English gun from the first quarter of the 18th century it ain't
Tom Patton
Tom Patton

 

[Cherokee]

Heres some reading for you'uns

Trade Gun Info.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Heres some reading for you'uns

Trade Gun Info.

WOW, that is some readin' all right! Thank You! :grin:

 

[matt denison]

The "1720 English Trade Gun" from the Book of Bickskinning IV is quite well documented in the Museum of The Fur Trade Journal, Winter, 2002 by James Hanson. It has been a gun of special interest to me. This is an original gun, not restocked. Barrel length is 36" but James states that it might have been cut down. Stock is curly ash. The gun is definitively dated by the mark of John Williams on the barrel. Williams apprenticed 1693 and became Master in 1728. Died in 1731. Trigger bow is approx. 1" by 2" and recognisable as similar to a type "G". Much more info. but no time to relate it all here. One more thing; James says that the sinous serpent side plate is "exactly" like the Queen Anne Service muskets. I was at the Museum this summer and took several pics., unfortunately they have glare from the glass case it was displayed in. Not suitable to post here.

Jack, if you are interested in this gun contact Gail Potter at the Museum of the Fur Trade at 1-(308) 432-3843 to get a back issue. They're only a couple of bucks.

Matt
NSWI

 

[Mike Brooks]

If it's stocked in curly ash it's more than likely restocked.

 

[tg]

I would like to see any docs on the use of curly ash on originals of the period, the barrel cannot be questioned if marked but that wood is suspicious???

 

[Okwaho]

Matt, I have a copy of that quarterly and have seen the info on that gun. I also saw and handled a gun of the same period and general type in the Essex Peabody Museum near Boston, Mass.It is also shown in American Military Shoulder Arms Vol.I by George D Moller,PP.63-64.It is a composite/restocked gun.It has a three screw flintlock 6 3/4" long with a dog catch and a 53 3/4" barrel with a 3/4" bore.The lock is marked "T Green" who worked in London Ca.1697-1728.There is no butt piece and the wood appears to be straight grained maple.I took notes and have some pictures of the gun which was in the museum basement.The gun in the Fur trade Museum is very similar although the butt architecture is very dissimilar to the Essex gun. which may or may not have had a butt piece.The gun in Chadron is very similar to somewhat later New England fowlers with more of a drop in the comb line reminiscent of French fusils with pied de vache styling.I would strongly suspect that the gun was restocked probably in the second half of the 18th century by a gunsmith familiar with French styling.I don't know whether the wood is curly ash as suggested or curly maple and would be interested in a wood analysis to confirm which.
Tom Patton