Trade Gun VS Brown Bess

[Packrat]

I have always said, if I can only have one gun, it would be my 20 ga trade gun. It can be used for almost any hunting in North America

 

[springfield art]

Which would you recommend as a first smoothbore flinter and why? Thanks

General hunting, go Trade. Besses are always easy to sell to re-enactors later on if you decide to sell. Trades are lighter, shorter, handier.

 

[springfield art]

In 1971 I built a kit Bess from Navy Arms. I built three others to be used at Fort Ligonier. Mine , was my first big bore musket . At the time , I was just trying to find my rear with both hands as far as m/l shooting. The Bess was fun , but found it too big of a caliber to compete with the .45 TC's at the Sun. afternoon shoots. Who knew?? Fooled around with a couple production guns , and a scratch built Hawken rifle from a Dixie Print. Finally , I found a fellow who was teaching a m/l long rifle building class , and he had a few extra parts , namely a 44" X.50 cal. Getz C-wt. barrel inlet into a precarved maple stock. I was young and strong , and could handle a well balanced 9 lb. longrifle . I built the gun , and was amazed at the accuracy , and power the rifle possessed. Shot competition matches for 10 yrs.with it , and killed many deer also. The Bess had long ago been sold to a hunting buddy simply because I had moved on in muzzleloading. After building 150+ m/l guns from scratch, I finally built a Pa. walnut stocked French Indian musket in 16 ga.. Kit Ravenshear designed the pattern from an original in the Tower of London Museum. He called it by it's French name , "Ped de Vasche" pattern , or " Foot of the Cow" , pattern. Kit said thousands of these were sent into 18th century French America for the Indian trade . It's a joy to handle , and feather light. Haven't shot it yet ,but soon. Have a turkey hunter interested in it ,so we have a date to take the Frenchie to the range. That's ma story , and I'm stickin' with it.......Blessings to all.......oldwood...

Interesting! Thanks for the post!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Which would you recommend as a first smoothbore flinter and why? Thanks

I own all three....
(three Dave? He asked about two...)
I have trade guns, I have full sized Bess..., and I have ...wait for it...., a Serjeant's Carbine in a smaller caliber than the full sized Bess..., not to be confused with Pedersoli's carbine, which is the same caliber as the Bess.

Depends as some have mentioned, on what you want to do. Hunting, Targets, Living History....,

Trade guns and Bess have large locks, which are very forgiving for new shooters. That means they are likely to have less misfires than say a factory rifle made with a small lock. All are robust and tend to take some punishment in the field.

As far as "kick" is concerned, that's physics..., both have metal butt plates, and while the ball for the Bess is larger than that for a 20 gauge carbine or trade gun, the butt on the Bess is longer and wider and more rounded on the edges in many cases, so the pounds-per-square-inch against your shoulder during recoil is mitigated more. IF you shoot an ounce of shot out of both using the same load, the Bess is actually softer.

What it really comes down to is easy of carry. Trade guns tend to be lighter in weight, and with shorter barrels and wooden instead of steel rammer, there is less leverage against your body when you are standing and shooting. The lighter weight also makes for an easier swing on a flying bird, if you should choose to go for upland game. You can get away with less shot and be successful on turkey or squirrels, which is a cost saving, and that is amplified if you decide to shoot a round of skeet or something.

So really, the trade gun is the choice if there is no Living History situation.

OH and some of the colonies had Bess muskets that they issued to Civilians, so not necessarily a no-no for a civilian to have such... but these would be much older models of the Bess than the Pedersoli.

LD

 

[CyrusP]

I'm more a hunter/historian/experimenter than I am a match shooter/wing shooter/re-enactor. History shows us all of the variations of trade guns and muskets work as hunting guns; match results show that they'll all work as match guns. If re-enacting is your thing, your choice is going to be narrowed to what is appropriate for what you want to do.

I was a big advocate of the NW gun. Then came the Year of the Bears. Seemed every time I turned around I was running into bears . . . when a grizzly cub steals the breakfast off your plate while you are taking a sip of coffee, a 24 gauge doesn't provide much peace of mind.

I went to a cut-down Bess for 20 years or so. It was my rendezvous/hunting/plinking/experimental gun. In the course of wearing out the lock/re-building the lock/burning out a couple of barrels, I got fairly comfortable with it. I won a fair number of smoothbore matches with it shooting ball. It was a mediocre bird gun (but I'm a mediocre wing-shooter). Took one bear (close enough his fur was badly burned), a couple buffalo, a couple moose, an elk, some pigs, a deer or two every year, an antelope, and various small game (coyotes and javelina to rabbits). Thinking about it, I probably hunted with that gun more than any other I've ever owned.

I did little with it I couldn't have done with the 24 gauge NW gun it replaced, but the power was a comfort at times. I gave it to a friend, and now have a SxS caplock that shoots the same loads (can't hit birds with it either). I might more-directly replace the Bess with another NW gun if I ran across a decent one, but haven't seen one I wanted to own badly enough to purchase it.

Doesn't help much, does it?

You had a grizzly cub steal breakfast off your plate? I’d have a permanent brown dye in my breaches if that happened to me!

 

[4575wcf]

For upland hunting I would go with a custom trade musket in as close to 16 gauge as I could get. About .69 cal would be ideal. For large game like elk-give me the musket loaded toward the heaviest charges.

 

[Dave Orchard]

My pick is relatively short trade gun & 24 ga..
With shot it is aprox equal of 28 ga. Breech loader.
24 ga. Ball is aprox same dia./wt. as used in .54 cal. rifle.(You won't hear anyone complain about lack of power in .54 rifle! ;-)
I load anywhere from 40 to 80 gr. of 3 FG & a patched ball in my very short 24 ga. that has an open rear sight....
As far as I can tell with usual old-age drawbacks, it is rifle accurate to 35 or 40 yds.

Davy

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I only had limited experience with a brown bess. I did have a North Star 24 ga trade gun with the longest barrel they offered. Curley Gostomski who made the original North Star Trade guns was a genius when it came to his locks. They were far more sure fire than most flintlocks even custom locks. Very light trigger pulls. Exceptionally fast ignition. I fired shot, buck and mostly round ball. that gun weighed far less than my other muzzle loaders, was longer and better balanced and far more graceful. I used the same flint for a lot of years. the lock geometry was that good. The brown bess IIRC was a Belgian made reproduction. Heavier, less balanced and far less reliable and slower ignition. BUT, I am comparing one of the best ever custom made trade guns to a run of the mill European production gun. Rolls Royce to stripped down Chevy.

 

[Rató:rats]

A trade gun doesn’t have to be short.

In 1757 William Johnson made a substantial order from a London firm for that years trade items. Included in the invoice, of course, were firearms;

400 Neat Fowling pieces Barrels 4 Feet Long Substantíal Stocks to have some distinguishing mark on the Barrel and Lock of each, about 2 0 / price,
400, ditto. a better kind distinguish’d as above.
200, ditto. 3 Feet Barrell for Boys. ditto. Wilson Maker

Source: Sir William Johnson Papers, Volume II page 898-899

So in 1757 a barrel of three foot length, or 36 inches, was considered child sized, while barrels of four foot length, or 48 inches, was much more common.

 

[LongWalker]

You had a grizzly cub steal breakfast off your plate? I’d have a permanent brown dye in my breaches if that happened to me!

Same trip--up in the Rockies cutting tipi poles--I killed a black bear inside the tipi. Ranger asked why I didn't try to get away, I told him the darn bear was standing on the sleeping bag I was occupying. Two days later, my partner that trip saw a bear following me through the brush: I knew she was there, I could smell her but couldn't see her.

So far, never a problem with grizzlies (other than juveniles stealing pastries) but they follow me sometimes. The black bears. . . we've exchanged harsh words a few times. For some reason, there are folks who won't go into bear country with me.

 

[dave_person]

Which would you recommend as a first smoothbore flinter and why? Thanks

Hi,
I would not choose either. I'd have a mid 18th century styled English fowler with 42" tapered or octagon/round barrel in 16 gauge. It could be plain but it would have a really good lock and be light. The lock would be either a Chambers round faced English, Chambers colonial Virginia, Chambers early Ketland , or Kibler round-faced lock. There are no commercially made Brown Besses or trade guns that could match that combination of reliability and performance.

dave

 

[4575wcf]

A friend shot a spike coast bull with a TC Maxi ball at about 80-90 yards. The bull was standing in an open field (rare for Western Oregon). He ran like a thoroughbred out of the gate with the rest of the herd. Just as he got up over the rise out of sight he piled up. Heart and lungs blown to soup, and a 1/2 inch hole through both sides. For round ball on elk, gimme a big one as hard as I can drive it.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

My pick is relatively short trade gun & 24 ga..
With shot it is aprox equal of 28 ga. Breech loader.
24 ga. Ball is aprox same dia./wt. as used in .54 cal. rifle.(You won't hear anyone complain about lack of power in .54 rifle! ;-)
I load anywhere from 40 to 80 gr. of 3 FG & a patched ball in my very short 24 ga. that has an open rear sight....
As far as I can tell with usual old-age drawbacks, it is rifle accurate to 35 or 40 yds.

Davy

The 24 gauge is equivalent to the .58 calibre. The 28 gauge is equivalent to the .54 calibre.

 

[tenngun]

Hi,
I would not choose either. I'd have a mid 18th century styled English fowler with 42" tapered or octagon/round barrel in 16 gauge. It could be plain but it would have a really good lock and be light. The lock would be either a Chambers round faced English, Chambers colonial Virginia, Chambers early Ketland , or Kibler round-faced lock. There are no commercially made Brown Besses or trade guns that could match that combination of reliability and performance.

dave

I do have a Centermark TFC. It’s not failed me hunting and if I do my part it doesn’t fail me at the range. It my favorite gun.

 

[manbat]

My first flintlock was the Pedersoli Bess. Quality is great and it shot the first time right out of the box and every time since without problems. Plus, I get the historical feel that interests me most and why I buy good shootable replicas. If you have hunting, competition, or other requirements then get the best caliber and musket type for that special purpose.

 

[oreclan]

In 1971 I built a kit Bess from Navy Arms. I built three others to be used at Fort Ligonier. Mine , was my first big bore musket . At the time , I was just trying to find my rear with both hands as far as m/l shooting. The Bess was fun , but found it too big of a caliber to compete with the .45 TC's at the Sun. afternoon shoots. Who knew?? Fooled around with a couple production guns , and a scratch built Hawken rifle from a Dixie Print. Finally , I found a fellow who was teaching a m/l long rifle building class , and he had a few extra parts , namely a 44" X.50 cal. Getz C-wt. barrel inlet into a precarved maple stock. I was young and strong , and could handle a well balanced 9 lb. longrifle . I built the gun , and was amazed at the accuracy , and power the rifle possessed. Shot competition matches for 10 yrs.with it , and killed many deer also. The Bess had long ago been sold to a hunting buddy simply because I had moved on in muzzleloading. After building 150+ m/l guns from scratch, I finally built a Pa. walnut stocked French Indian musket in 16 ga.. Kit Ravenshear designed the pattern from an original in the Tower of London Museum. He called it by it's French name , "Ped de Vasche" pattern , or " Foot of the Cow" , pattern. Kit said thousands of these were sent into 18th century French America for the Indian trade . It's a joy to handle , and feather light. Haven't shot it yet ,but soon. Have a turkey hunter interested in it ,so we have a date to take the Frenchie to the range. That's ma story , and I'm stickin' with it.......Blessings to all.......oldwood...

In 1974 I bought a used unfinished Brown Bess kit from Log Cabin Sport Shop. I bought it for $150. I used it in reenacting throughout the Bicentennial in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Virginia. Sold it years ago to get some other muzzleloader "I had to have." Wish I had it back even though I own a custom Jim Everet 1728 long land pattern British musket. (It is heavy!) My second model has a reduced swell around the entry thimble with a deep gouge there,( Placed by the original owner of the kit. )so I probably would recognize it, plus maybe a green safety dot from Yorktown reenactment behind the trigger. It may still be in Western Pennsylvania.
Ronald Reagan reviewed the troops along with the French Prime Minister at the Yorktown Bicentennial.
Built a " poor boy" rifle from Golden Age Arms parts with a .45 Douglas barrel. Used it at the last of the Bicentennial...killed my first muzzleloader season deer with it.
Converted a 1763 French musket kit in to a 1728 model with a Kit Ravenshear French lock and some modified/ fabricated iron parts. This is now my favorite reenacting musket.

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

In 1974 I bought a used unfinished Brown Bess kit from Log Cabin Sport Shop. I bought it for $150. I used it in reenacting throughout the Bicentennial in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Virginia. Sold it years ago to get some other muzzleloader "I had to have." Wish I had it back even though I own a custom Jim Everet 1728 long land pattern British musket. (It is heavy!) My second model has a reduced swell around the entry thimble with a deep gouge there,( Placed by the original owner of the kit. )so I probably would recognize it, plus maybe a green safety dot from Yorktown reenactment behind the trigger. It may still be in Western Pennsylvania.
Ronald Reagan reviewed the troops along with the French Prime Minister at the Yorktown Bicentennial.
Built a " poor boy" rifle from Golden Age Arms parts with a .45 Douglas barrel. Used it at the last of the Bicentennial...killed my first muzzleloader season deer with it.
Converted a 1763 French musket kit in to a 1728 model with a Kit Ravenshear French lock and some modified/ fabricated iron parts. This is now my favorite reenacting musket.

I'm curious, did you do anything to the stock in the conversion? Or did you just change out the bands and run with it?

 

[springfield art]

Several years ago, Dixie's flyer had Pedersoli Bess kits for $600.! I got one but sat on it for years before assembling it; the only real work was finishing the wood by sanding, etc., and it came out beautifully! I'm happy with the appearance, just took lots of hand sanding, but not all that much come to think of it; was quite well near-finished out of the box. Oh, the brass needed filing & polishing, too. But very handsome and worth the work.

 

[John Spartan]

Wish that price was still good.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

My first flintlock was the Pedersoli Bess. Quality is great and it shot the first time right out of the box and every time since without problems. Plus, I get the historical feel that interests me most and why I buy good shootable replicas. If you have hunting, competition, or other requirements then get the best caliber and musket type for that special purpose.

My very first Flintlock was a Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine Kit…that gun is amazing. Taught me most everything I know about Flintlocks.

I love the history of this firearm