Traditional and accurate

[Stantheman86]

The best bullet so far in the .40 is a Lyman 403173 designed for the 40-60 Marlin and 40-65 Winchester lever guns. It drops from my mold at 308 grains and is a tack driver at velocities up to 1400 fps. Recoil in the White mountain carbine is mild with the Pachmayr slip on pad but it will be replaced with a Pachmayr fitted pad and the pitch addressed at the same time.

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I need one of those wood grip attachments

 

[zerosprk]

So how fast of a twist do I need for conicals? Is 1:24 what I'd need for that?
Here's is a stupid question, what does GPH stand for?
M

The rate of twist required to adequately stabilize a bullet in flight is largely dependent upon its length and to a lesser degree, its velocity. However, at muzzleloader velocities it's not a concern. So, back to length. For any given caliber, the longer the bullet the heavier it is. Therefore, the faster those long/heavy bullets have to be spun in order to be gyroscopically stable in flight. Your opening post mentioned a .50 caliber. The lightest .50 caliber conical that I'm aware of is the 250gr. Lee R.E.A.L. Is the 1:60-something twist you mentioned having fast enough - maybe, I don't know. My gut feel is probably not but if you wanted to try, I'd recommend a heavy charge of powder in order to get the velocity up as high as you safely could. Will a 1:24 twist stabilize that bullet, sure. Is that rate of twist required, my guess is no. I bet a 1:48 would work just fine. The other end of the spectrum is the 395gr. Plains bullet. There may be heavier ones out there but that is the heaviest one I could think of off the top of my head that I have experience with. I will say this, I couldn't get that Plains bullet to shoot well out of a 1:48 barrel, no matter how fast I drove it. So, its 1:24 for me. I might have to play around with the powder granulation and/or charge, but if I can get a bullet down the barrel, I'm willing to bet I can get it to shoot pretty well.
I like to hunt so if I'm going to shoot a critter with a bullet, I like to shoot the heaviest for caliber bullet that I can get to shoot accurately. Heavier bullets have higher sectional density (the ratio of bullet weight to the square of its diameter) which means better penetration, everything else being equal. Better penetration can mean the difference between just one hole in and one hole in and one hole out. Two holes means more air in and more blood out.
I didn't bother to repeat the answer that @Grenadier1758 posted earlier regarding what GPH stands for.
Hopefully this helps...

 

[Bad Karma]

I need one of those wood grip attachments

Slick huh? I’m still fitting it for the rifle. It’s got a small gap at the front end that’s offending me...

 

[Stantheman86]

Slick huh? I’m still fitting it for the rifle. It’s got a small gap at the front end that’s offending me...

I think it would work great on one of my Enfields

 

[Bad Karma]

I think it would work great on one of my Enfields

I just checked and Pedersoli still has them for sale on it’s website... around 100 bucks including the shipping.

 

[springfield art]

Huh?

While I'm sorry his son passed due to the terrible cancer, but Biden is/was always touting his son as a president. The Delawareans gave up their state for a full half-century to this guy, and would be more than willing to give his son the same chance. We rebelled from Britain and the King, then turned around and allow Ted Kennedy, Schumer, Biden, et al, to have permanent, lifetime, family-inherited political power. Cuomo recently resigned, yet the sun still rose, the Earth still exists and NY state has a nice breath of fresh air in the governor's Castle, er, mansion. The NY Times recently solicited ideas from readers for changes in the Constitution. One guy had a 'commission' of 'scholars' who wrote a whole new Constitution for the US, 'after careful deliberation'. I don't recall his name but think you can find it at A New Constitution for the United States, they 'published' it on line. If you think people are upset now, wait til they find out there's a serious movement to REWRITE the whole document. And, I just bet there's no room for gun rights. Thanks. (P.S.-This applies to ALL political parties!)

 

[Stantheman86]

I just checked and Pedersoli still has them for sale on it’s website... around 100 bucks including the shipping.

I'll have to get one and then work up the nerve to screw it into my stock

 

[mkpatrick]

The rate of twist required to adequately stabilize a bullet in flight is largely dependent upon its length and to a lesser degree, its velocity. However, at muzzleloader velocities it's not a concern. So, back to length. For any given caliber, the longer the bullet the heavier it is. Therefore, the faster those long/heavy bullets have to be spun in order to be gyroscopically stable in flight. Your opening post mentioned a .50 caliber. The lightest .50 caliber conical that I'm aware of is the 250gr. Lee R.E.A.L. Is the 1:60-something twist you mentioned having fast enough - maybe, I don't know. My gut feel is probably not but if you wanted to try, I'd recommend a heavy charge of powder in order to get the velocity up as high as you safely could. Will a 1:24 twist stabilize that bullet, sure. Is that rate of twist required, my guess is no. I bet a 1:48 would work just fine. The other end of the spectrum is the 395gr. Plains bullet. There may be heavier ones out there but that is the heaviest one I could think of off the top of my head that I have experience with. I will say this, I couldn't get that Plains bullet to shoot well out of a 1:48 barrel, no matter how fast I drove it. So, its 1:24 for me. I might have to play around with the powder granulation and/or charge, but if I can get a bullet down the barrel, I'm willing to bet I can get it to shoot pretty well.
I like to hunt so if I'm going to shoot a critter with a bullet, I like to shoot the heaviest for caliber bullet that I can get to shoot accurately. Heavier bullets have higher sectional density (the ratio of bullet weight to the square of its diameter) which means better penetration, everything else being equal. Better penetration can mean the difference between just one hole in and one hole in and one hole out. Two holes means more air in and more blood out.
I didn't bother to repeat the answer that @Grenadier1758 posted earlier regarding what GPH stands for.
Hopefully this helps...

I fired the Hornady 50 cal conicals out of my CVA Pennsylvania. They grouped OK at 100. Heavy round though. This rifle has a 1:66 twist I think.
So I was surprised that they made a round hole in the paper.
I was told to not load more than 80 grains of powder in that rifle. I bought it used so I don't have a manual for it. After 100, they were dropping hard.
I suppose out of a tighter twist those Hornady's would do a bit better?

 

[zerosprk]

I fired the Hornady 50 cal conicals out of my CVA Pennsylvania. They grouped OK at 100. Heavy round though. This rifle has a 1:66 twist I think.
So I was surprised that they made a round hole in the paper.
I was told to not load more than 80 grains of powder in that rifle. I bought it used so I don't have a manual for it. After 100, they were dropping hard.
I suppose out of a tighter twist those Hornady's would do a bit better?

That would be my guess. 1:66 is really intended for round ball. The lightest .50 caliber conical I can think of right now is the 250gr. Lee R.E.A.L. They might do ok with that twist given that they are so short. What was the weight of the conical you were shooting? You said it grouped ok at 100 yards plus put round holes in the target. So clearly they are flying well to that point. What does "grouped ok" mean actually? If it's anywhere close to paper plate sized, I'd take it hunting. I'd try and close the distance as much as I could because even though these things fire a projectile, it's really like archery on steroids and in archery, closer is always better. Just for kicks, I'd also play around with round ball just to see how your barrel shoots them - you might have a heck of a shooter in your hands...

 

[Bad Karma]

I fired the Hornady 50 cal conicals out of my CVA Pennsylvania. They grouped OK at 100. Heavy round though. This rifle has a 1:66 twist I think.
So I was surprised that they made a round hole in the paper.
I was told to not load more than 80 grains of powder in that rifle. I bought it used so I don't have a manual for it. After 100, they were dropping hard.
I suppose out of a tighter twist those Hornady's would do a bit better?

I would expect the PA Conical to shoot pretty well from a 1 in 66 twist. That’s what they were designed for. The bullet isn’t much longer than .50” (essentially the same as a round ball) and that rate of twist should be entirely adequate. Are you loading a card or wool wad under the bullet? That’s a good way to protect the base of the bullet which is critical for best accuracy. You could try a few heavier loads with a wad and see what they look like

What’s your barrel diameter? I’d be very surprised if that rifle was limited to 80 grains as a maximum. There may be a manual online...

 

[mkpatrick]

So they grouped a 3.1 inch group at 100 but I was very socked in for bench rest, it was very stable. The round ball was closer to 4 inch. I'd gotten previous advice to not put a patch behind this bullet. This rifle was left uncleaned and got rust in it. So I was worried it would ever shoot again. I'd clean and clean and clean and get a patch with no brown on it, then shoot, clean, shoot and the next day, brown on the patch again. I started with the PA conicals and they grouped better. But the advice I'd gotten was to not even use a patch, which I found very odd.
You sort of have to finagle the PA's into the muzzle, then they seem to get a bit tighter as you ram them down.
They have a concave shape on the rear, so not sure if a card would make it difficult to get them to seat evenly?
Please temper what I'm typing with my inexperience.
Oh the barrel has an OD, from flat to flat of about 22mm or .9 inch.

 

[Bad Karma]

Pretty much 15/16” . Most rifles with that much barrel will be allowed 90 to 100 grains of 2f. As far as the rust is concerned you might get a bottle of Evapo-Rust, plug the nipple or replace it with an appropriately sized screw taped with thread tape, pour it into the bore, carefully so it doesn’t spill outside of the barrel as it will remove bluing. Let it set overnight, pour it out and clean as normal.

Cards or wool wads work just fine with a recessed base. I use the next size larger than the bore, .54 in a .50, .50 in a .45, etc. I seldom shoot anything without a wool felt wad. After I load powder I slap the breech several times to settle the powder into the patent breech, then introduce the wad into the bore. I ram the wad home before loading the bullet or ball and ramming it home. No excessive pressure, just seat it firmly on the powder charge. Remove the rod, cap and fire. Easy!

 

[zerosprk]

So a couple of things...
IMHO, its best to start with a clean bore. Evapo-Rust was suggested above. I don't personally have any experience with that particular product. It might be the best thing since sliced bread - I just don't know. If it were my barrel, I would probably gently scrub it with a maroon or maybe a green Scotch Brite using an undersized jag. Once the bore is clean and smooth, I'd wipe it with a patch soaked in WD-40, Barricade, Rem-Oil, olive oil or something similar to make sure rust doesn't start in your freshly cleaned bore. Store the gun barrel down on a paper towel to make sure your any excess rust preventative of choice collects on the paper towel and not in the bottom of the barrel. That can create a problem or two that you don't currently have. Speaking of that: You commented on being limited to 80gr of powder. A lot of folks shoot loads heavier than that...in some cases, quite a bit heavier than that. My advice would be to proceed with caution. Upping the charge is easy to say when its not your face behind the breech. Maximum charge weight is something I like to have in writing whenever possible... Before you load it, make sure you run a clean and dry patch or two down the barrel. In my experience, oil + fire = tar. I try and avoid that situation as much as possible regardless of what I'm shooting. You stated that your conical load shot a tad over 3" from a bench at 100 yards. I'm a hunter, so keep that in mind... If it were me, I'd try the exact same load configuration in a shooting format that I would use in the field, so either using shooting sticks or prone or sitting off of the top of my pack. If I could get 9 out of 10 shots in a paper plate, I'd call it good. That said, I would play around with a couple of things. If you are currently using 3f, I'd try 2f. You might need to up the powder charge a bit. 3f burns faster than does 2f. So it typically takes a little bit more 2f to develop the same velocity than a given charge of 3f. The converse is also true - if you are currently using 2f, I'd try 3f but at a lower charge. If things get better, points for you. If not, at least you know. The other thing I would try is something between the powder and the conical. That "something" can be a lot of different things. I'd try either a caliber-specific over-powder card or better yet a felt-type wad that you could put some lube on to help keep the fouling soft and see what kind of results you get. If they improve, great. If not, it's still valuable information. Obviously you are going to do all of this "testing" from the bench so as to remove the biggest contributor to inaccuracy which is you. Once you determine what your best bench load is, use it in your field shooting configuration to determine your maximum range. 9 out of 10 in a paper plate will work on anything from a 30# coyote to an 1500# bull moose. What do you think?

 

[mkpatrick]

Yeah, I use the bench configuration to see what the rifle will do with me as eliminated as possible. I can't take that bench out in the weeds and hunt from that, I do use a trigger stick which is really handy. I have a fold out 3 legged stool, I set up next to a tree so I can lean on that, the tree branches are usually heavy with snow so they are drooping down and I'm harder to see. Sometimes I even put a bit of camo netting over me. These coyotes are very skittish so even with a modern semi automatic, you're still only getting one shot. They hunt in pairs a lot. After you take that first shot, the other coyote is light speed out of there. So its only going to be one shot. May as well be my Pennsylvania.
I used to shoot prone all the time. I did it in the Army and in matches and such. But eventually, from my job I developed a neck issue. Lying prone forces your head/neck to be bent about as far back as possible. I can't do that anymore. I'll have pain for a week. So I have to shoot in a different position when my head can be more straight up. Firing offhand is difficult with a long barrel like that so I stay in a seated position. With the cross sticks or the trigger stick and leaning against a tree, I can get reasonable stability without having to be on a neck traction machine the next day.
So the cards....are those something I buy calibre specific? Where do I get them?
Wouldn't that inhibit the PA conical from becoming expanded? I read that the PA conical is designed to not be used with a wad or a patch. I assumed it was because the base of the round needs to expand into the rifling? (guessing on that one)
I have been using 3F.
I didn't contemplate 2F as a slower burning powder. It seems like I'd get more velocity that way, the powder is expanding and accelerating the projectile down the barrel. If the expansion is done while the round is still in the barrel there might be more stability but it seems like a slower burning powder would make for more velocity.
Unless I'm just way off.

 

[zerosprk]

For over powder cards, wads and a lot of other stuff, check out Track of the Wolf. They carry a lot of stuff, their prices are reasonable and their shipping is pretty fast, at least in my experience. I suggested trying either a card or wad because sometimes they help. They might not make a difference in your application but at least you'll know. I'm not familiar with the conical you are using. Are they flat-based or are they hollow-based like a minie ball? If they are hollow-based, the card/wad might be a waste of time. If they are flat-based, I'd definitely try them. As for the 2f vs 3f suggestion, it's a way to collect information you don't have just like the card/wad deal. There are a lot of folks that shoot 3f exclusively in anything that is less than .62. If you have some 2f, I'd try it and see if your barrel/bullet combination likes it better than 3f. Maybe yes, maybe no. The point is that you don't know what you don't know. There is an individual on this forum known as Idaho Ron. He shoots a .50 cal. T/C Renegade among other things. He shoots something like a 500 or 600gr paper-patched bullet and I think 2f powder and bangs a 20" steel plate at 1200 yards repeatedly. Check You Tube, he's posted multiple videos and they all are both informative and entertaining. I'm not sure i could see a 20" plate at that distance - maybe if it had a flashing light on it, let alone hit it with a rifle using open sights.

 

[zerosprk]

My bad, the gentleman I mentioned above is not Idaho Ron, it's idaholewis. He posted a new thread in the percussion rifles section with the title 500 yards, 1:48 twist... that you might find interesting. I know I did!

 

[mkpatrick]

1200?? Dang!!
The PA conical has a concave base.
I guess if I'm going for muzzle velocity, I'd have to get a chronograph.
I thought about Track the Wolf for maybe shopping for a rifle that would give me some good accuracy out to 200-300.

 

[mkpatrick]

I'll check it out,

 

[Bad Karma]

1200?? Dang!!
The PA conical has a concave base.
I guess if I'm going for muzzle velocity, I'd have to get a chronograph.
I thought about Track the Wolf for maybe shopping for a rifle that would give me some good accuracy out to 200-300.

Blackpowder isn’t very efficient compared with smokeless... I would be careful about chasing velocity with muzzleloading arms. I’ve done it, and sometimes still do check velocity (just to be sure...) as have quite a few others, it’s just not a very productive use of time in my experience. If you are interested, the Gun Digest Blackpowder loading manuals have load data for many common rifles and bullets. Fadala used GOEX for the most part and Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 will best his numbers by 10-15% or so.

Careful loading, using bullets appropriate to the arms, good sights, and consistent shooting technique. These all more important than knowing what your velocity numbers are.

Don’t let the concave base of the PA bullet throw you, it’s nothing like a minie ball or anything, it’s a slight depression and although it’s purpose is readily apparent, it’s effectiveness at achieving the purpose is not. I suspect the bullet obturates just fine ahead of a 70 or 80 grain boot in the rear end. I know that a round ball in a revolver will do so and it has much less mass and less than half of the pressure behind it. The purpose of the wad is mostly to protect the all important base of the bullet. Our neighbor used to keep a few sheep and would give raw wool to anyone who would take some. I’ve used a small ball of it behind the ball or minie ball. Works great... I’ve heard of other people using cotton balls.

 

[mkpatrick]

A cotton ball would be very convenient. It seems like it would be tedious to cut a perfect circle in cardboard to put behind the PA.