Traditional ML Season Support Base.

[tg]

Is there a strong enough support base at this time to maintain a traditional ML seasson in any/some states, and I am refering to a non watered down definition of traditional, pre-cartridge era guns ignitions, sights and projectiles which would requires modifications on many production level guns, and for the sake of discussion let us have a cut off date of 1850.This will help avoid "wiggeling" in a lot of modern stuff under the guise of "a blank is a blank" I am looking at a true but not perfectionist with iron barrels and mandatory horesback transportation type traditional season..guns and gun gear not clothing or all of the other things that get tossed in to muddy the waters.

 

[canyonman]

tg,

What state are you refering to? As you well know, Oregon can't hardly support the ones they have. We are not overrun with deer so...?? I'm not sure what you are asking about, please elaborate. :hmm:

Larry

 

[roundball]

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
Well...sounds like a pretty tall order...seems just the hardware restrictions alone would make it pretty tough to find 'numbers' of folks who could/would participate...but throwing 'horseback' in as an added restriction really seems like it would pare it down to almost nothing.

My only sense of the number of people across the country committed to traditional ways is through a few years on forums like this...and I don't get a sense that there would be large numbers of folks dedicated to those restrictions to that degree, to say nothing of the expense when you bring horses into the picture...dunno

 

[jdixon]

My guess through observation here in Kentucky is no. Evidence - A piece of the Daniel Boone N.F. near here, set aside for true traditional muzzleloaders hunters and archers only is hardly used (something that I love by the way!!!) Also, gun shops around here don't even carry sidelocks in stock. You want a sidelock they will order you one or in some cases, toss a Cabela's catalog at ya. I would have to say that in-lines still pretty much rule the roost in these parts.

 

[buckknife]

tg are you saying a season with flint lock or caplock with exposed side hammer shooten round balls with fixed iron sites?Clothing opitional and steel barrels allowed.
By fixed iron sites i mean the ones that go right or left,not up and down.
I only know of a handfull of people around here where im at that would fit into this season,most are toten around their inlines.
I have very low fixed irons on all my frontstuffers,one has the modern sites but its a cva hawkins i put a different barrel on and have never shot it yet,been hangen on the wall for a year or longer.I think a spider has made a home out of it :haha:

 

[tg]

I guess I need to clarify a bit, the season would be for traditional sidelocks cap or flint with prb and no modern primers or sights, the mode of transportation was an example of an extreme that did not apply, also we will assume that there are other seasons which would allow the in-lines , civil war guns, 30-30's and everything else thus no one is being eliminated from hunting, as for Oregon such a season would just reduce the number of applicants which already exceed the available tags, this is a season just for traditional hunting no modern type guns, sights or projectiles, not stretching things to try and make it something for everyone as there are other seasons for those who are not interested in the above guns and gear. I am curious as to how many think there would be an interest in such a season in their areas, and keep in mind there would be other seasons "general ML." "general deer" "controlled antlerless" or whatever each state needed to meet their managment goals that allow a variety of non-traditional guns and gear so no one is being excluded from anything, if there is no interest in such a season then there may be little use in trying to promote one unless it becomes the same old watered down version that has evolved into what hsa become the focal point of the modern vs traditional debate.

 

[mikegalante]

Hope this is what you are looking for:

Pennsylvania Flintlock Muzzleloader Season
Dec. 26 - Jan. 14
Regulations:
Flintlock ignition, single barrel long gun, 44-caliber or larger, using single projectile ammunition. Iron, open "V" or notch sights only. Fiber optic inserts permitted.
During the traditional late flintlock deer season muzzleloader hunters are not required to wear or display fluorescent orange.

I hope I'm on target. Thought I read somewhere that there are only 2 states that have this type of season. Not sure but could be wrong.

 

[thomas]

I would support a traditional ml season like that in my state, but don't think there would be alot of us.

Thomas

 

[aflatlander]

I don't think that would fly with the people I know, myself included. They are hunters first and not really traditional minded. The most serious hunter I know was happy to replace his Lyman great plains rifle with an inline and he's killed more deer with the GPR over the years than anything else. With the growth of the deer population here and hunting tag/fee increases, I think your proposal would have 0 chance of going anywhere. They're trying to get more people out hunting rather than restrict it. The muzzleloader season here is FIRMLY with scopes, inlines, 209s, substitute powders, sabots, etc. if people want them except no smokeless powder. I know that's not what you want to hear, but your ideas wouldn't be welcome at all. You can argue tradition, intent, history, etc. and it just isn't going to do any good. Maybe in other places, but not here.

It's like all of the "old time" Harley-Davidson owners moaning (polite description) about the people who've bought them in the last 15 years. The production increase has been fast enough that those who first bought them 30-40 years ago just don't matter to the company enough to pander to their minority desires.

I'm not trying to get banned here, but you need to know just how unpopular your message is outside of this forum. The best chance for restrictions like this to occur is if the conditions get really bad for the deer (drought, disease, etc.) that the deer population falls drasticaly. Then, in the middle of the chaos, it might happen. It'd have to get pretty bad though and they could just as easily decide they don't need a muzzleloader season at all.

 

[tg]

I am just looking at whether there is any support base around the country for a real traditional ML season, as stated this is above and beyond anything already in place so it would not change any current seasons or add rstrictions to them,it is of course hypothetical for the sake of discussion.

 

[musketman]

I am just looking at whether there is any support base around the country for a real traditional ML season, as stated this is above and beyond anything already in place so it would not change any current seasons or add rstrictions to them,it is of course hypothetical for the sake of discussion.

How would you recommend starting a support unit?

I guess we could contact our state representative for starters...

 

[rmonday2]

I believe tg's suggestion is to,"add to" not take away from anyones regular season.

tg I would be willing to support any such traditional season here in TN, and any type of support group that could be generated from this site would surely be of help in the future.
After all, The loudest squeek gets oiled, and minority rules not majority!

It's the new American way!

Ronnie

 

[WSmitty01]

As I stated in another forum, there is only so much time in a season, with only 2-3 days allowed for muzzleloading per WMA here in Florida, unless you belong to a hunt club or have private land, you would have to take time away from the other in-line hunters, who happen to be the majority! And in this country it's usually the majority who wins! I know I enjoy both of the types of hunting and I choose what I want to hunt with and when. I hunt with my Sante Fe Hawkens during the muzzleloading season, and really don't mind sharing the season with the in-liners. We have drawings that limit the amount of hunters in each WMA so there will only be a specified number of hunters anyway. I don't intend on forcing my way of thinking on anyone else, because I'm sure if Daniel or Davey had the opportunity to hunt with a modern scoped in-line they wouldn't be arguing about the traditional values of the side shooters.. I hunt the gun season with my Black Mountain with scope and sabot, because where I hunt you can only use pistol, shotgun or muzzleloaders, and this gun gives me a lot more range with better accuracy. I don't know or really care who got the muzzleloading seasons started in Florida, but I do know hunting here is dropping off.. We need more people interested in the sport who can bring the younger generation into our world of fair-chase hunting and the love of commuting with the outdoors along with taking game, no matter the method (as long as legal). To each his own, I say. I think the whole traditional/in-line argument is a moot point. Nothing stops me from hunting in the matter I choose. I don't see the archery hunters arguing this between the stick-bows and the modern compounds and there is a HUGE difference in those weapons. The archery seasons were started in most states WAY before the compounds but they both share the love of the chase and leave each other enjoy there own thing, I know I hunted that way for 30 years. Open minds and friendliness should prevail!!!

 

[Hoyt]

I would like to see a primitive weapon season..flintlocks or stickbows.
The reason I would like to see it is because it would get a lot of people out of the woods and make for a better hunt.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Is there a strong enough support base at this time to maintain a traditional ML seasson in any/some states, and I am refering to a non watered down definition of traditional, pre-cartridge era guns ignitions, sights and projectiles which would requires modifications on many production level guns, and for the sake of discussion let us have a cut off date of 1850.This will help avoid "wiggeling" in a lot of modern stuff under the guise of "a blank is a blank" I am looking at a true but not perfectionist with iron barrels and mandatory horesback transportation type traditional season..guns and gun gear not clothing or all of the other things that get tossed in to muddy the waters.

Hi TG,

Support base in Michigan? Perhaps and could be a strong one. So long as our General Muzzleloading Everything Goes except smokeless powder season is left alone. If this is an ala carte additional then sure why not.

For the traditionally only minded, that's more time in the woods with your flint or whatever.

Any more time in the woods opportunity with a firearm will be most welcomed by the firearm bunch. The bow bunch may not be so agreeable though. Depending on the seasonal window.

I'm for supporting an additional season similar to that which you describe in my state. As stated many times and then flamed, I'm for Flintlock or earlier ignition & long bow, open fixed iron/steel sights, PRB, or Substitute.

I think cap ignition just opens the door enough for for the modern wiggling to commence. If flint or earlier, then of course you get the synthetic stock which everyone loves , but for the most part will be really difficult to replicate and wiggle modern elements in to.
But if functional elements of the caplock could effectively defined then the caplock and earlier may work.

Horseback likely not for public hunting seasons. But limited ATV use rules should also be in place for all hunting seasons not just traditional.

From a private hunt perspective, sure why not. You could make it horseback and very primitive and correct. But for a public season, I think the functional characteristics of the weapon is about as far as will have much support.

:m2c:

 

[Wiley Wynn]

As one of those "old timer, dyed in the wool" traditionalists who was involved in initiating two state,(we called them primitive arms seasons then), muzzle loading deer seasons and KNOWING the original intent, I am constrained to ask... Why separate out a "ML" season at all, if all you are interested in is additional time to hunt, game management, etc:? Those agenda's can be addressed more satisfactorily by simply extending the "hunt with anything", deer seasons previously existing.
If you are not interested in recreating, as closely as possible, the 18th century experience, why bother at all?
I have asked a like question to "wheely" bow shooters !
As I told an angry MO DNR person, "NO it is not about quantity, but QUALITY !"

 

[roundball]

As one of those "old timer, dyed in the wool" traditionalists who was involved in initiating two state,(we called them primitive arms seasons then), muzzle loading deer seasons and KNOWING the original intent, I am constrained to ask... Why separate out a "ML" season at all, if all you are interested in is additional time to hunt, game management, etc:? Those agenda's can be addressed more satisfactorily by simply extending the "hunt with anything", deer seasons previously existing.
If you are not interested in recreating, as closely as possible, the 18th century experience, why bother at all?
I have asked a like question to "wheely" bow shooters !
As I told an angry MO DNR person, "NO it is not about quantity, but QUALITY !"

:front:

 

[Tahquamenon]

Hi Canis and Welcome! :thumbsup:

I was replying to the thread posted by TG.

Discussing support for traditional ML defined hunting seasons is why we are here.

I'm not personally interested in re-creating or re-enacting anything let alone hunting, although I do enjoy hunting with traditionally styled ML's.

Brings up a good point though, is the support wanted to be only from those that want to re-create or re-enact or would simply hunters that enjoy traditionally styled ML's be good for the support as well?

I would think if one wanted the season, then the widest support possible would be best for success and then leave it up to the hunter's themselves if they wish to re-create or to merely hunt with primitively defined equipment and guidelines.

:hmm:

 

[Stumpkiller]

When I wrote my State DEC and requested a return to primative (round ball, no optics) muzzleloading season, or even one week primative only, I was given this response:

Thank you for sharing your views regarding the deer season restructuring proposal for the 2005 season. We plan to conduct a structured public outreach effort in early February. This effort will include public meetings similar in nature to the 2002 State of the Deer Herd program and will provide additional opportunities to provide input and discussion.

It is our intention to implement changes to NYS's deer management program that will make full use of deer hunting as the most primary tool for controlling deer numbers on a statewide scale. In the process of doing so, it is our desire to provide equitable access to the deer resource for all hunters, while concurrently enhancing and expanding overall recreational opportunities. Clearly compromises will need to occur in some instances, and some long standing traditions may change as a result. However it is our hope that by doing so that we will be able to provide a balance of opportunities that will carry over to the next generation of NY deer hunters. By doing so, the legacy of deer hunters and deer hunting will be maintained and will continue to provide a valuable and important service for all of the citizens of NY.

The regulations to enact changes to the 2005 Big game hunting Season will be formally proposed early in 2005 so that changes can be implemented in time for the autumn of 2005. This regulatory process also includes a 45 day public comment period during which formal
reaction to the proposed regulations can be registered with the Department. The DEC is obligated by law to respond to the comments received as a part of this regulatory process before adopting a regulation.

Thanks again for sharing your views and opinions.

Dick Henry
Big Game Biologist/Wildlife Services
NYSDEC , Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233-4754
Phone: 518-402-8867
Fax: 518-402-8925
[email protected]

Outcome: Muzzleloader is anything you can stuff in the muzzle of a rifle of any description and bowhunters formed a better organized from that prevented any early season (muzzleloading is the nine days following regular season, bow is the seven weeks preceding - same $ for either tag :curse.

The "discussion" at the local public meeting was a great deal of shouting and belittling the traditional muzzleloaders as "snobs" (they didn't have "elitest" in their vocabulary) using "game wounding" round balls. Not from modern muzzleloaders, but from modern bowhunters! This from tree sitting "Birdie Bowhunters" with expandable broadheads . . . but don't get me started.

Traditional equipment (either bow or gun) is too "specialized" for general acceptance. The majority does not want a challenge, they want an extra deer.

 

[Runner]

Ha, I have had several Mo. state inliners threaten me with violence over pushing to get even some of the managed hunts returned to real primitive weapons hunts! At the rendezvous this weekend, maybe one in three of the people there shooting feel that such an effort is worth the trouble. You might get enough people together to get one test case started. Count me in.