Traditional Rifle Accident

[MacRob46]

I think the photos of this accident clearly point to a shooter who somehow mixed smokeless with BP or mixed up smokeless with BP. I agree that this type of damage, while it could be caused by BP is just too severe to not have been from a smokeless charge. A faulty barrel might have caused this if it was overloaded with BP but this damage is extreme to the entire gun.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Zonie Wrote:

As for the picture of the exploded TC, I've seen barrels destroyed by obstructions and to me, that gun looks much more damaged than any that were loaded with black powder.

I agree. I've been trying for ten years to get the local shop to sell me a modern Browning rifle barrel in .30-06 that was fired with some snow jammed into the muzzle (lack of attention by the hunter carrying his rifle over snow covered ground, muzzle down.) I want the barrel as a teaching aid for Hunter Safety Class

Anyway... the barrel is split like a banana from the muzzle into a "Y" shape. Now granted that was smokeless powder in steel made to handle smokeless powder... but I wonder two about somebody perhaps putting smokeless powder into a can marked for Pyrodex or something along those lines...which would account for "no smokeless powder found", but the accident being from smokeless powder.

:idunno:

LD

 

[Claude Mathis]

getting to a point in my life where I forget things. Range officers need to keep an eye on us!

Range officers?

I'm not addressing this particular accident, but...

We need to accept the fact that, as we get older, we're not as sharp as we used to be. At some point, we need to stop driving, flying a plane and yes, perhaps even stop handling dangerous weapons. I know that will be hard for some to accept, but for our own safety and the safety of others, we need to admit it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Unfortunate but true. I remember as a kid at the local skeet range the older fellow who loaded his shotgun, and rested the muzzle on the toe of his boot, while he adjusted his glasses, then shouldered the shotgun to shoot.... when I asked him about the safety of that procedure, he replied, "I'ts perfectly safe for me, son, as I blew of them toes doing the same thing ten years ago." :shocked2:

It's different for the individual, and the loss of ability is normally so gradual that often the person doesn't realize it until it's brought to their attention. I've stopped more than one elderly person who was legally blind yet trying to drive (happily in every case a cataract operation fixed that problem).

It's not always due to age... I've stopped people on the roadway half my age, and seriously not cogent enough to be on the highway...I'm not talking about folks who are "mentally challenged"... I'm talking about people who appear to be safe drivers and drive for years without an accident, yet for some reason they make a decision and do a maneuver without thought one day... which ends in a very negative result.

Anyway, back to the thread... I'm glad he survived, with only a small, permanent injury. I'm glad he was alone and bystanders weren't injured.

LD

 

[James Kelly]

I have seen a number of burst T/C Hawkens.

Those that have been loaded with smokeless tend to blow up right at the breech, not split all along. I would be inclined to believe it was a stuck ball.

Wonder when this T/C was made? In the last couple of decades they have used 1137Mod steel, which is also used in lower priced modern shotguns. Not great stuff but tolerable for a muzzle loader.

Nevertheless, a ball stuck in the bore can burst any barrel.

Early T/C's were made with barrels bought from an outside source, disremember who. I do recall someone from that barrel producer telling me they used 12L14 or drawn tubing, whatever was to hand, regardless of what T/C specified. This included barrels for modern cartridge single shot pistols.

I think it just a stuck ball with black powder. Some steels, notably 12L14, are worse than others but even 4140 won't stand this treatment. It is possible for black powder to generate pressures at last 60,000 psi behind a stuck ball.

This has been known since Benjamin Robbins published an article about burst Brown Bess muskets, in Proceedings of the Royal Society sometime about 1760. As in most of human endeavors, what is "known" is not known by all; human beings make mistakes; and explosives do not always do the same thing each time.

It would be interesting to actually handle these pieces. What one can tell by eye is just where the crack started, and which way it went. That is, did it indeed start at the bulge where the ball was stuck (most likely). Identifying the grade of steel, sort of an academic point here, requires good lab analysis for sulfur, phosphorus, lead and carbon, hopefully also manganese, chromium and molybdenum (the latter two most unlikely to be present).

For what its worth I have worked as a metallurgist since late in the JFK presidency, and shot my first muzzle loader (Grampa's single barrel percussion) in 1954. I have done failure analyses on a number of muzzle loading guns, some the shooter's fault. These were published in a three part series in 1985 Muzzle Blasts. I might even know why Douglas went out of the muzzle loading barrel business.

I am well aware that it is quite hopeless to discuss barrel steels with muzzle loader fans.

 

[Dr5x]

Firing the rifle with the ball only short started is how one goes about bulging and ruining his barrel. Most barrel bulges are found six to eight inches from the muzzle.

Getting a ball stuck somewhere down the barrel can be avoided by the quick wipe after each shot. I have always recommended that are a way to achieve accuracy but it has the side effect of preventing stuck balls.

The accidental barrel explosion perhaps was a combination of both a crud encrusted bore and a possible double powder charge. Putting two charges sown the spout or short starting and not seating the patched ball all the way down on the powder are both the result of day dreaming or. more usually, a friendly interruption from someone else while engaged in the loading process.

I double charged a rifle once and acquired a bruise about the size of Detroit.

Dutch

 

[Okie Hog]

i spent a career in US Army Explosive Ordnance Disposal. Did the same stuff as a civilian for an additional 30+ years.

In the 1970s i built and tested hundreds of homemade bombs using blackpowder, Pyrodex and smokeless powders. We used nearly every type of steel and iron pipe and tubing available.

Longitudinal splits in gun barrels are nothing new. Barrels that burst with smokeless powder often split lengthwise for some distance.

A piece of steel tubing like a rifle barrel will often split along the line of least resistance. You can make a line on a piece of high grade steel tubing with a carbide scribe, load the tubing with blackpowder and the tubing will often split along that line.

The barrel in this case did not fragment. The barrel split for it's entire length along the line of one of the flats.

Dan Phariss is absolutely correct: Some US made muzzleloader barrels have been machined from some very sorry steel. Some have been made from seamless tubing.

 

[Okie Hog]

I have seen a number of burst T/C Hawkens.

Methinks some of those burst TC barrels resulted in federal lawsuits that are listed on PACER.

 

[nkbj]

Took to heart what a skermisher said.
Have a good stout brass rod to pound down stuck ones to shoot back out.

 

[George]

Early T/C's were made with barrels bought from an outside source, disremember who. I do recall someone from that barrel producer telling me they used 12L14 or drawn tubing, whatever was to hand, regardless of what T/C specified.

Just curious, did you pass this information along to T/C? They would likely have been interested.

Spence

 

[Dphar]

It is supposition that smokeless was used. If smokeless to any extent was used then fouling would not have been much of a problem and the ball would not have stuck. That there have been failures very much like this with blackpowder with no loading errors going back to the 1970s with this brand firearm I stand by the barrel steel statement.
Smokeless in a caplock ignition can be very dangerous due to the too soft ignition imparted by the percussion cap but in this case its unlikely to split the barrel since these events tend to cut the barrel off pretty sharply. In full length splits with relatively little deformation this is an indicator of brittle steel. In this case the split will even outpace the speed of a projectile and the ball/bullet may actually be found jammed in the crack if the barrel does not completely split.
The phenomenon is virtually unknown in modern forearms with 4140-4150 barrels. However, it is more common when 416 stainless barrels are used. Sako recalled an entire run run of SS rifles haver a series of blowups with and without injury both here and in Europe. One that failed in America split full length, barrel and action when fired with factory ammo. 416 is a brittle free machining material and it appears to be the 12L14 of the stainless world. Krieger states on their website that stainless barrels should not be fired at temperatures under 0f since they are increasingly brittle as the temperature lowers. But the steel is brittle at any temperature by design. Steels or stainless intended to be free machining are intentionally made brittle since this is what makes them cut easily and produce a good finish. Carbon steels are cold rolled to produce this effect and additions of Phosphorus, Lead and Sulfur also lubricate the cut. But these tend to form inclusions in the steel which also makes the material unsuitable for gun barrels since with the brittleness and the inclusions the barrels can split. Nor is pressure level a good indicator since the steels are shock sensitive and firearms barrels, regardless of propellent are subjected to shock at every firing due to the speed at which the pressure is applied.
The speed the pressure is applied weakens the steel and its especially deleterious to brittle steels.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Early T/C's were made with barrels bought from an outside source, disremember who. I do recall someone from that barrel producer telling me they used 12L14 or drawn tubing, whatever was to hand, regardless of what T/C specified.

Just curious, did you pass this information along to T/C? They would likely have been interested.

Spence

Trust me, the lawsuits early on gave them all the info they needed.
But this is another long story.

Dan

 

[19 16 6]

All seems to point to proofing being a very good idea.
Also, now, you blokes with the older TC's from the era of the bad steel choice for the barrel should beware & take care.
O.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Considering, I have seen a modern cartridge T/C gun blow up...... bad steel might be a valid assumption.

 

[M. De Land]

James,I have a copy of an article written by you from the Buckskin Report dated September of 1981.
What grabbed me was the Izod and Charpy (notched bar) numbers for shock load on 12L14 alloy.
The other was that the cold rolling was probably responsible for the brittleness more than the alloy make up.
The chart with alloy comparisons of various stress loadings was particularly informative an interesting.

 

[Dr5x]

The T/C Kit rifle I put together had a barrel I later learned was made by the Sharon Barrel Co. Idaho or somewhere in that area.
As I got no accuracy from it I bought a replacement barrel from the same Sharon folks and that's when I learned that both barrels came from the same manufacturer.
I gave the original barrel to a gentleman in Florida.

I learned that my inaccuracy was not caused by the barrel.

Dutch

 

[Mickc01]

I think the fellow was 84... no telling if he had the strength to properly ram it down past a dirty point, or if he'd a been able to pull it...so ask for help or get one of them new fangled CO2 dischargers...I also don't know if he might have been alone on the range....I read some additional information that his car was very bloody...he drove himself to get help is what that implies...unconfirmed.

I can't get the images to work, sorry.

LD

I had a similar thing (not the explosion, thankfully) happen to me the last time I went shooting. I recently had my right shoulder replaced and found I only had the strength to get about 5 rounds down the barrel before there was too much pain to go on, and of course I had that one more ball lodged about a foot down the barrel. Thankfully, I always carry a co2 discharger with me and it did the trick.

Since then I have bought a heavy brass range rod that I plan to use from here out but I have yet to go shooting again since now knee trouble would keep me from getting my darn targets down range. Getting old sucks and I surmise this gentleman just wanted to go shoot again like I would absolutely LOVE to do myself. I truly feel for him and sincerely pray for as full a recovery as possible....Mick C

 

[Dphar]

All seems to point to proofing being a very good idea.
Also, now, you blokes with the older TC's from the era of the bad steel choice for the barrel should beware & take care.
O.

Proving a faulty steel proves nothing. It can pass proof then fail at the next service load.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Considering, I have seen a modern cartridge T/C gun blow up...... bad steel might be a valid assumption.

Modern smokeless guns are different and the later TC MLs seemed to have better barrels.
Most failures in carbon steel barrels on cartridges guns are generally reloading errors or obstructions, which are much more serious in rifles running a normal pressure of 55-65000 psi and velocities in the 2800-4000 fps. These often with thinner barrel wall thicknesses past the midpoint of the barrel as well.

Dan

 

[coloradoclyde]

I was referring to a T/C contender pistol with a 45/70 barrel shooting a relatively mild load. it also went kaplooey much like the gun in the picture, it shattered into pieces. luckily the shooter was unharmed.

I also know of a new Armalite that blew up and when it was presented to the factory they pressed the bulged receiver back into shape and screwed a new barrel on and said is was fine. :shocked2: