traditions flintlocks worth buying?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Paul V nailed it....

Do you feel lucky?

I did, my second gun was a Traditions. Long gone,now... But it was a reliable tack driver. Never gave a lick of trouble. I've owned a few semi customs and customs that will never be able to make that claim....by well known makers.

And so it goes... You feelin' Lucky? :grin:
 
El Lobo said:
newtothis said:
I want a lyman, because i know they are good guns, but the traditions flinter kentucky long rifles are much more affordable. are they decent guns for a first flinter?

No. Save your money and buy a quality rifle. Based on my own experience I advise buying a good used custom rifle instead of a low quality production gun. They can be had for $600 or so if you keep your eyes open. Cheap guns are, well, cheap guns.

Good luck to you.


Just another perspective on this....

Ya know what - I may just get flamed for this, but please... PLEASE post a link to some of those good used custom guns for $600 for this guy so he doesn't have to buy a cheap gun.

Fact is, there are a heck of a lot of those Traditions making smoke and meat without too many issues. Not everyone is HC\PC, or is anywhere near into BP as some of you guys. Some folks actually like and want plastic stocks and stainless barrels but do not want one of those non-breech loading, substitute powder shooting, shotgun primered guns.

Yes, you may need to tweak them - but you may need to do some of that to the TC's, the Lymans, and YES - sometimes even the custom guns. These lower cost guns have there niche and it is not with the old salt, lifelong BP shooter. Their niche IS the newbie, or Joe Deer Slayer... Some will have no issues, Some will have issues and seek out knowledge from sites like this. Often they learn a lot and start down the path of lifelong BP shooter. Others are expecting the ease and reliability of modern cartridge guns and trade them off rather than learn about the intricacies and reality of BP shooting.

Yes, "you pays your money and takes your chances"... but sometimes you don't have the time or money to get something really good, so you get something "good enough for now". It is what it is, an entry level gun.

As for the Traditions, here is another report to consider. We just did a NWTF Jakes Day event Saturday. One of the stations was Muzzle Loaders. The PAGC WCO said that they've had VERY GOOD performance over the past several years with The Traditions flinters... I forget the figure, but something like 24 weekends a year with between 50 and 100 kids shooting them per weekend. Each gun sees 2K+ rounds per year and some rifles might be 10 or more years old. He said that they mainly had to replace the frizzens due to wear.
 
Good point Hocky, I like your data from the kids.
In spite of my personal bad experience with my Traditions PA, after following threads like this one when they come up, I agree that it seems to be a crap shoot depending on which one you get. I guess only the "good ones" make ten years with that kind of use. When I decided I wanted to try a flintlock I guess human nature was telling me "I want to try it right now.! Maybe
other first timers feel the same way. I can understand why when you want to shoot "today" you might go with what you can get, even if its a Traditions. Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.
 
Plus, The resale value of those "barely used" Tc, Lyman, or custom guns generally will not allow you to recoup your investment easily. Not that $300 or so is chump change, but $600+ is a bit harder to "eat" should the new shooter not like it. Now if you "know" that you want to buy into BP shooting, then make the investment in the TC, Lyman, or look at the customs. I was originally gonna buy a Chambers kit.... could not afford the cash outlay so I went with a $300 GPR kit to get some experience building them (sorta kinda). So now I am saving for the Chambers.... but then, I shot BP of an on for years with friends guns and never got around to getting one of my own. A whole lot different to an absolute newbie that wants to get their feet wet for as little $$$ as possible.
 
I don't know anyone who buys a gun, or Car, or Boat, etc. who DOESN'T want to " try it now". But the problem with some of the Cheaper guns is that they are so poorly put together, or made, that without some work, you aren't going to get the darn thing to go off NOW!

My first gun was an import Cheapy on a factory sell-out sale. Everything that could be wrong with it was. I was lucky if it would fire once for every three or four attempts. I literally took it to the range in the packing box!

Since all sales were final, and I could not return it, I went to work finding out everything that was wrong( beginning with a bent lock plate!) and slowing fixed everything. By the time I took it to the range the next time, ignition was reliable, and I could begin to work on a load for the gun.

The reasons we caution people about buying these Cheap guns IS BECAUSE there are a myriad of problems presented, and without some skills and tools to do the work, the guns are NO BARGAIN.

Worse, many of these guns have killed any interest the buyer has in shooting BP guns FOREVER! They blame the entire sport because of one bad experience with a cheap gun, not knowing that there are better guns available for not much more money, and that with a better gun, they would enjoy shooting traditional BP guns so much more.

The single biggest complain I have heard from frustrated would-be MLers is that...

".. you should be able to buy a gun from a company that actually Works!, without having to do a lot of time consuming, and expensive work in the gun to get it to fire reliably".

Granted, I hear this about lots of guns, but its an indication of how many people squawk about the problems they encounter with these inexpensive( I am trying to be nice, please notice) import guns. It also is a sad commentary on the decline of basic education in our schools so that people DO NOT know how to use basic hand tools to fix things. :shocked2:
 
i said this once befor get a good used one shoot it if it gives you trouble replace the lock
with a L&R lock just ubscew abd screw may need little fitting but thats it make them ok i my eyes
i know i banned or at least shunned but i take a cva moruko (SP)or traditions over any of the T/C i've owned if you get the bugs worked out they are ok shooters
have yet to own a lyman but not sure i ever will
 
buzz said:
i said this once befor get a good used one shoot it if it gives you trouble replace the lock
with a L&R lock just ubscew abd screw may need little fitting but thats it make them ok i my eyes
i know i banned or at least shunned but i take a cva moruko (SP)or traditions over any of the T/C i've owned if you get the bugs worked out they are ok shooters
have yet to own a lyman but not sure i ever will


I am sorry but I didn’t follow you too much of that but I think you said you prefer Traditions and/or CVA to a Thompson Center. I have no problem with that if it is what you want.
To each his own and I won’t denigrate anybodies choices.
 
You “experienced and knowledgeable” guys have been repeating this mantra all the while I have been on this forum. Yet none of you are willing to give us names or make a list of these cheap, poorly made guns to avoid. Realizing that fact, how about a list of acceptable guns that will be trouble free and worthy of consideration?

Would it not be a great public service to finally get these poorly made pieces off the market?
 
If you have been reading this forum, the answer has to be " NO", its not a service to the public to get these guns off the market. I don't want government given that power, either.

Some of these guns, including, apparently, one or more that you have, give good service to you. Its the inconsistency of quality control that causes most of the problems. The design errors are not unique to imported guns, unfortunately.

Since there are New gun companies, and New Import companies springing up every year, It would be impossible to give a complete list of the guns that present more problems than they may be worth fixing.

Its up to the consumer to make careful choices in how he spends his money- not "Big Brother", whether its our formal, Inept, Federal Government, or the membership of this Forum.

I don't see many consumers buying cars, or appliances, or TVs sight unseen. I can't understand why consumers think they can buy guns sight unseen, either. :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff:
 
I bought mine about 5 years ago and now have over 5,000 rounds through it. Not bad on flints and it's VERY accurate.
 
As Paul said, there is a large variation in the quality of many guns.

That makes it almost impossible to give a "list" of guns to avoid.

There are a few things for potential buyers to look at when buying a older factory made gun.

The first thing may raise a few eyebrows on the sellers but the lock should be removed from the gun.

Looking at the interior of the lock you should see a tumbler bridle. Many of the Spanish guns (and others) that were imported by many different import companies in the U.S. were made without this important feature.

For those who don't know what a tumbler bridle looks like, I'll try to give a brief description of it.

A bridle is basically a part or feature that entraps something.
The "tumbler" is the partially round thing that the mainspring acts upon. It is the part that turns when the hammer is moved. It has at least one little flat place on it for the sear to engage and this is usually on the side towards the rear of the lock.

The tumbler bridle will look like a little bridge that covers part of the outside flat surface of the tumbler and it has a hole that is located in line with the hammers pivot axis. It is usually retained with 2 or 3 screws.
The tumbler will have a round projection that is in line with the hole thru the lockplate and this projection goes thru the hole in the tumbler bridle forming a outer bearing that gives much needed support to the tumbler.

Locks that do not have this tumbler bridle have a tumbler that is standing proud of the lockplate with nothing supporting the side that is furthest away from the lockplate.

Without this tumbler bridle and with nothing supporting the outer end of the tumbler, the hole thru the lockplate is the only thing that works as a bearing and is the only thing that keeps the tumbler straight.
As the tumbler has the mainspring that produces a lot of force pushing against it, if the tumbler has only one bearing in a soft steel lockplate it doesn't take long for the bearing hole to wear out. When this happens the tumbler will get cocked and the sear that keeps the lock at full cock will not engage its full cock notch properly.
This can lead to big safety problems and there is no easy fix for it.

While the lock is out of the gun you will see the sear arm sticking out like a sore thumb.
Use your thumb to push up on this arm. It should move freely with a moderate amount of resistance from the sear spring. If it is very hard to push up try to determine if this is because the screw that holds the sear in position is the problem or the sear spring is just too darn stiff.
Both of these can be easily fixed but it is good to know about a stiff sear.

With a flintlock, many of the poor guns have a frizzen that is not hardened properly.
While most sellers would become upset if you took a file to the frizzen to see if it was hard, most wouldn't know what you were up to if you took your pocket knife out and scraped the corner where the frizzens face meets the edge towards the barrel.
If your knife can cut into this edge the frizzen is too soft. If your knife doesn't cut into the metal, if it leaves a bright shiny surface but no chips the frizzen is probably OK.

With the lock installed back into the stock, try the trigger.
If the trigger pull is heavy and the sear spring was very stiff or the sear screw was overtightened you can fix it by fixing the stiff spring or by loosening the sear screw 1/2 turn.

If, on the other hand, the sear spring was about right and the sear arm moved fairly easily the problem with the trigger pull is that the trigger pin is in the wrong place. This is a design problem and it is not easily fixed.

If the owner will allow you to remove the barrel then do so.
Look at the wood that was under the barrel at the breech end. A little fouling residue around the lock area is fine but if there is a lot of fouling at the rear of the barrel it indicates that the breech plug was leaking rather badly. This is not good.

Also, look at the rear of the barrel where the breech plug is installed.
Some guns were made with the breech plug brazed in and these will often have a small area where the brass brazing alloy is exposed.
A brazed in breech plug is dangerous so the existence of any brazing alloy is an automatic reason for rejecting the gun.

While I'm talking, be sure to run a oiled cotton cleaning patch on a correctly sized cleaning jag down the barrel.
A heavily rusted bore is bad but a light coat of red rust on the patch usually doesn't represent a problem.
When you run the oiled patch down the bore take note of the force needed to move the cleaning/ram rod. If, at some point it suddenly becomes very easy to push and then returns to the former force you have discovered a bulged barrel.
Because most muzzleloaders barrels are so thick, these bulges usually can not be seen by looking at the outside of the barrel but they sure can be felt when running this test.

I could go on but these are the BIGGIES so I'll leave it at that. :)
 
Mr. vallandigham if I new something was harmful or not serviceable and one of my “friends” was about to buy it, I would not hesitate to tell them so, BY NAME.
It certainly is curious that there is plenty of moxie to bash the industry but deafening silence when it comes to the specifics.

“Some of these guns, including, apparently, one or more that you have, give good service to you.”

You assume too much, my friend. I guess everyone knows I have and love my Thompson Center Hawken but other than that you have no idea what I own. Would you be surprised that companies like Track, L&R, Davis and even Chambers will sell product to owners of TCs.

I would suspect that much of this comes from the way the gun looks rather than how it performs. Not to mention the cost differences.
 
Mr. Zonie you have it way over me in this class. I am going to suppose we are talking CVA and Traditions since that is the topic of the thread but no one will come out and say so. To be honest I am not the one that should be the placard carrier for either. I have never even touched a CVA and only held a Traditions ”˜anything’ for a total of minutes.
I still think it comes down to appearance or at least that has a big deal to do with it.

This poster wants to know, ”are they decent guns for a first flinter?” If he buys one lets help him make it as good as it can be. This has been a pretty good discussion and he got some good opinions.

Just Ernie
 
"”are they decent guns for a first flinter?” "

Well, I might have missed one but the tally up to now seems to be: 9 NO and 5 YES.

I doubt that it is possible for anyone to give a better answer than that.
 
I'm a first time Flinter and I bought a Lyman Deerstalker.

Dixon's in Kempton, PA told me that Lyman's are the best because the locks are solid and the barrels are match-grade making excellent weapons.

Everyone I've talked to about what I should get told me to stay away from Traditions rifles.
 
dont get me wrong /t/c is ok just not for me or my tastes but thats me all im saying relock them they pretty good for the most part buy a T/c
its ok but no more PC/HC then other of the common rifles
CVA's ive owned been tearing up targets and thats ok maybe my T/C were not best they have to offer
 
Now that Thompson Center has modified its flintlock, they are selling a firearm worthy of their lifetime warranty. I see nothing wrong with this American made gun.

Lyman, an American company, has their guns built by Investarms, in Europe. To its credit, Lyman has maintained quality control over its product, and the locks, and barrels ARE excellent. There is very little difference between the Lyman rifles and the T/C mountain rifle, save some cosmetic design differences. Only the price, and the absence of the lifetime Warranty differ the Lyman guns from the T/C.

Investarms makes guns similar to the Lyman for sale through other retailers, like Cabelas. There are differences in the quality of workmanship of some of these guns comparing them to the Lyman products.

Next, you have guns made by companies in Spain and Italy. Pedersoli is probably the best of the companies, but some of the best made guns Pedersoli makes are not for sale in the USA- only in Europe. Go figure. I personally am not a fan of Pedersoli Flintlocks, because the maker merely substitutes a flintlock for a percussion lock, without understand the differences between the two ignition systems. As the result the flintlocks tend to be inferior in quality to their Percussion models. The problems always are in the locks- design, and fitting of parts-- never the barrels.

The Country that seems to now make the worst quality control guns are in Spain, and they are making the CVA/Traditions line of guns. They may also be marketing their guns under other labels. Its not my personal interest to keep up with that market.

That is as specific as I can get about the rotten guns, and the ones that seem worth their price. Like Zonie, there are things I do to inspect, and check guns at gun shows, or on gun racks in stores, before becoming interested in buying them. These same tests are also done when looking at used, older guns, whether commercially made, or custom made. Zonie does a good job of describing the kind of checks a knowing BUYER should expect to make.

If a Seller won't let you remove the barrel and lock from the stock of a flinter, pass on the gun.

If he won't let you run an oiled patch down the barrel, pass on the gun.

Of course, its up to you to have the correct rod, and jag, patches, and oil with you, as well as gunsmith grade screwdrivers to remove screws and bolts carefully, to do these inspections. Have a bore light that you can slide down the barrel to get a good look at the rifling, and the top of the lands to check for pitting. :thumbsup:
 
Paul, Zonie,
Thank you! That bit of information should go a long way to educating any potential new BP shooter. Flint\BP shooting is not something that you stroll on down to the local DIck's, buy the kit, and go shoot.... Although some folks do just that in blissful ignorance. There is a definite learning curve to doing BP and rock locks correctly. You need to learn about stuff like flint choices, flint to frizzen angles, what makes your lock work\work better, the nuances in cleaning and lubrication, patch lubrication and thickness - not to mention patch reading.... and a whole lot more.

Maybe someone that doesn't have the ability to use basic hand tools, to think critically about how his rifle works, and what may need done to fix\make it better should stick to cartridge guns? These are "hands on" sort of guns.... more than any other type or style they have their own personalities, likes and dislikes....

There are going to be tweaks that need to be made and the shooter will be much better off after going through the procees of learning what to tweak, how to do it, and finally piciking up said basic tools and getting the job done.
 
Back
Top