Traditions Woodsman - PRB Loads for Hunting

[Nuthatch]

Last year, I picked up a Traditions Woodsman in the weather resistant model. It's a typical 1:48 twist. I got it for blacktail hunting on the CA coast -- a late season hunt I've enjoyed for the last couple of years.

I managed to get a couple of loads that work fairly well -- one with conicals (Thor 247 gr., sized .501 over 90 grains Pyrodex) and one with PRB (lead & ITX over 50 grains Pyrodex). For hunting, we're forced to use lead-free projectiles out here -- even with muzzleloaders.

My PRB groups pretty well and, being so cheap to shoot, I tend to shoot it more. Even my son can shoot it, too, since it kicks about as much as a .223. I'd like to use it for deer hunting but I've only managed to get decent groups out of it with 50 grains Pyrodex. Any more than that and things open up a lot. The guy I bought it from had some success with 90 grains of Goex so it could be a powder issue. All I know is when I shoot 50 grains, I get most of my shots within an inch or two at 50 yards but at 70-90 grains, they're in about 7-8".

So I have 2 questions for other Traditions Woodsman hunters in the group:

1. What PRB loads have worked for you for a hunting load?
2. Is 50 grains (guessing about 1300 fps at the muzzle) still adequate a charge for blacktail & mule deer out to 75 yards or so? Or do I just need to stick with the Thors for hunting purposes?

 

[Nuthatch]

I should clarify that while the coastal blacktails can run a little smaller, the sierra blacktails can be pretty sizable out here. So an adequate load would be something capable of taking down deer running around 150+ lb dressed.

My Pyrodex is 2F equivalent.

 

[arcticap]

Maryland is a state with a wide variety of deer sizes, with both whitetail and smaller, non-native sika deer seasons.
Their regulations allow for a minimum of .40 caliber rifles but deer rifles must be loaded with at least 60 grains of powder.
Pistols [both single shot & revolvers] must also be at least .40 caliber and loaded with at least 40 grains of powder for deer hunting.
This is only to provide a comparison of the type of hunting ethics that Maryland wants to impose on their hunters.
Obviously a pistol isn't going to have the range or margin of error of a rifle.
That leaves a certain amount of discretion that an individual hunter would need to use regarding distance and what are the ways to determine that?
There must be some formulas to determine velocity and foot pounds of energy at various distances, if not outright penetration and accuracy testing.
Have you tried shooting into any water jugs or into a bundle of wet newspapers?
Are there any component variables that you haven't tried yet to increase the accuracy with the round balls?

It shouldn't always be about groups as much as about the consistency of the 1st shot out of a cold, clean barrel.
If the 1st shot out of a cold, clean barrel is more predictable then your average group size with heavier loads, then that would be a plus.
But if it's not then that would be a negative for extending your hunting distance.

They often say that it's all about shot placement.
But in the end, the objective is to bring the game home.
It's your decision about which is the best way to accomplish that goal.
It's often easier to lose a deer than it is to bring one home.

 

[Nuthatch]

Undoubtedly, there are a lot of variables to play with and experiments to run. But I was hoping to draw on the experience of others -- both in shooting the same rifle (what components might work better for hunting loads) and from hunting with this rifle (50 grains was or was not capable as a hunting load).

 

[rafterob]

My best load in my Woodsman Hawken is 70 grn. 2f Goex and a .495 lead ball. That happened to work out as my most accurate, best grouping load and that would be more than sufficient for the game you speak of out to 100 yards. That 100 yard shot would have to be off a steady rest for me. I am comfortable offhand to about 80 yards. The problem here is what your projectile is. You need to practice with what you have to hunt with. I suggest the roundball. They are typically less expensive, better suited for this barrel and carry plenty of punch. Get some real black powder as soon as you can. Although Pyrodex is ok, it does have its issues. One of which can be difficult ignition. ANd when you have tha perfect shot lined up and pull the trigger, the last thing you want is for the cap to go bang with no boom from the barrel.

 

[Nuthatch]

My best load in my Woodsman Hawken is 70 grn. 2f Goex and a .495 lead ball. That happened to work out as my most accurate, best grouping load and that would be more than sufficient for the game you speak of out to 100 yards. That 100 yard shot would have to be off a steady rest for me. I am comfortable offhand to about 80 yards. The problem here is what your projectile is. You need to practice with what you have to hunt with. I suggest the roundball. They are typically less expensive, better suited for this barrel and carry plenty of punch. Get some real black powder as soon as you can. Although Pyrodex is ok, it does have its issues. One of which can be difficult ignition. ANd when you have tha perfect shot lined up and pull the trigger, the last thing you want is for the cap to go bang with no boom from the barrel.

Thanks for that. I've kept an eye out for black powder but haven't found anywhere local to buy it yet. I initially had some issues with Pyrodex ignition -- lots of misfires & hangfires. But since I started snapping a cap between shots, everything has run flawlessly.

In the meantime, any idea if Pyrodex P might run a little more like BP?

 

[arcticap]

I think Pyrodex P burns cleaner and is easier to ignite than Pyrodex RS.
It may flow better into the flash channel of some guns because of the smaller granulation.
Because it may also produce higher velocity, the rule of thumb is to reduce loads by 10% volume compared to loading with 2F or RS.

It may also be easier to compress it with more consistency during ramming which can be helpful for better accuracy, but each gun and user are different.

 

[tenngun]

60-90 grains of 3 f or pyrodex p equivalent by volume should do you well out to a hundred yards or so. A few members have slapped me for this and that’s ok, I don’t think any ml with ball or conical should be pushed much beyound a hundred to a hundred and fifty yards. Get close, get clean kills, none of us have to go home hungry if we don’t get a kill.

 

[Nuthatch]

I think Pyrodex P burns cleaner and is easier to ignite than Pyrodex RS.
It may flow better into the flash channel of some guns because of the smaller granulation.
Because it may also produce higher velocity, the rule of thumb is to reduce loads by 10% volume compared to loading with 2F or RS.

It may also be easier to compress it with more consistency during ramming which can be helpful for better accuracy, but each gun and user are different.

I saw in my Lyman manual that although the same powder charge of P results in higher velocities than RS, the pressures were lower -- not what I would have expected. Might just pick up a jar next time I'm at the store & give it a try.

 

[Nuthatch]

60-90 grains of 3 f or pyrodex p equivalent by volume should do you well out to a hundred yards or so. A few members have slapped me for this and that’s ok, I don’t think any ml with ball or conical should be pushed much beyound a hundred to a hundred and fifty yards. Get close, get clean kills, none of us have to go home hungry if we don’t get a kill.

Agreed. Personally, I try to set conservative limits on myself. Shot opportunities are rare out here so 75 yards can look surprisingly like 50 yards after a long season. 50 would be my upper limit on RB -- I just want a margin of error in case my judgment is off that day.

 

[Zonie]

I saw in my Lyman manual that although the same powder charge of P results in higher velocities than RS, the pressures were lower -- not what I would have expected. Might just pick up a jar next time I'm at the store & give it a try.

That's strange.
My Lymans "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL" (2nd Ed) shows several different loads where both Pyrodex P and Pyrodex RS were tested and the breech pressures were higher with the "P".

page 147. .32 caliber, 26" barrel, 1:66 twist, .310 roundball
Pyrodex RS:
40 grain =11,800 psi
50 grain = 13,300 psi
60 grain = 16,100 psi

Pyrodex P:
40 grain = 12,700 psi
50 grain = 16,100 psi
60 grain = 22,600 psi

page 154. .45 caliber, 28" barrel, 1:48 twist, .440 roundball
Pyrodex RS:
60 grain = 8,500 psi
70 grain = 11,900 psi
80 grain = 15,400 psi

Pyrodex P:
60 grain = 11,100 psi
70 grain = 13,800 psi
80 grain = 16,500 psi

I did notice on page 191 for the .50 caliber, 28" barrel, 1:48 twist, .495 ball the pressures for the RS are lower than the P.
For instance they show a 80 grain load of RS = 7,000 psi and a 80 grain load of P = 6,100 psi.
I strongly suspect they got the tables mixed up and printed the P data in the RS box and the RS data in the P box.

 

[Nuthatch]

Yes, I was looking at the .50 with 28” barrel. Mixing up the tables makes sense to me as well. But I’m pretty new to muzzleloading so I wouldn’t presume.

 

[Smokinfeathers]

mine liked 80 gr of 3f goex with 495 rb and .010 patch, i killed several whitetails at 75-80 yds with it

 

[renegadehunter]

Have you tried recovering patches to see what they look like when trying over 50 grains? Perhaps it's more of a patch thickness and lube issue?

 

[Nuthatch]

Have you tried recovering patches to see what they look like when trying over 50 grains? Perhaps it's more of a patch thickness and lube issue?

Could be. I can't find most of my patches. There isn't much time to look around while others check targets during a cold range. I've found one or two at 50 grains & they're all in-tact. I have some thicker patches that I might be able to pound in with a mallet when using lead balls. But ITX is way too hard for those thicker patches.

Lube-wise, I use Bore Butter. I could try using more -- really coating the patch up with a thick layer.

 

[renegadehunter]

I'm no expert but my experiences trying different combos has shown that less lube gives me better groups than a lot of lube. Using a patch that requires a mallet certainly doesn't sound fun, especially in a hunting situation. I'd try to shoot a few at 75 or 80 grains and then read some patches to at least identify/eliminate if the patch/lube combo is holding up. For example if you're using a .495 RB and a .010 patch and find that the patches are damaged badly, then perhaps a .490 RB and .018 patch would work better...

Running a cleaning patch between shots? My rifle demands that I swab or else groups are pretty terrible as well. Just spit-balling some ideas.

 

[rafterob]

Another item that helps solve misfires with Pyrodex. Use CCI "Magnum" caps if you can find them. It will save you from firing off extra caps between shots. i don't know if other companies offer a magnum cap also.

 

[Adui]

60-90 grains of 3 f or pyrodex p equivalent by volume should do you well out to a hundred yards or so. A few members have slapped me for this and that’s ok, I don’t think any ml with ball or conical should be pushed much beyound a hundred to a hundred and fifty yards. Get close, get clean kills, none of us have to go home hungry if we don’t get a kill.

Yup, I got slapped for the same reason. however, I chrony'd my rifle (Traditions Hawken Woodsman left hand caplock) we a lowly little 65 grain charge of Pyrodex P and it made 1500+ feet per second, (Might have been just over 1600fps but I can't recall the exact number. Only that I was astonished at what my light target load was doing). At 75 yards or less that's plenty, though I don't hunt anymore so it was a moot point.