Trigger Guards

[Zonie]

As many of you already know, and some of you who are buying your first "box of parts" will find, the trigger guards that we start with are usually rough sand castings.

Many of these are copies of original trigger guards and are cast in brass, German silver and steel but they all share a common problem. They are much thicker than the originals were.

The primary reason for this is twofold.
First, the maker knows that the surfaces will be very rough, usually with a "split line" showing down the center of them where the cope and drag of the sand casting equipment is split, so he adds extra material to allow you to file off the rough surface and the split line mark.

Second, metal shrinks as it cools from its molten condition to the finished casting.
This means he has to cast the part slightly larger and thicker than the original to end up with a casting that is not too thin.

As many of us want to get things done as rapidly as possible we tend to file the surfaces until all traces of the original rough sand cast surfaces are removed. Then we set to work sanding and polishing until we get a nice shiny part ready to install.

The problem with this goes back to the fact that these things are cast too thick and just removing the rough surfaces isn't enough to bring them down to the thin elegant parts they are supposed to replicate.

I just measured a few rough trigger guard castings that I have on hand and I find that the average thickness of the bow area is about .185 thick.

After studying some photos in RCA (Rifles of Colonial America ) of the trigger guard on the rifle I'm using as a model for my latest work I realized that the trigger guard needed to be about .120 thick in the bow area. Anything thicker would detract from the slim features of the original gun.
This resulted in the need to remove over 1/32 of an inch from both the inside and outside surfaces which is quite a bit of filing.

I suggest that if you can, find some good photos of the rifle you are trying to duplicate or of rifles that were made in the time period you are trying to make.
Don't be afraid of making your trigger guard too thin (within reason). Your finished rifle will look all the better for your efforts.

 

[streetsniper]

Thanx for that short treatise on cast parts. I'm presently filing casting marks on German silver parts for a Lancaster. It sure is a lot of work. How thin is thin enough? Billy

 

[Goldhunter]

Thanks Zonie. I did a TON of filing on my last rifle. I'm looking pretty heavily at a investment cast for my next build. I know there will still need to be a bunch of filing and sanding, but not quite as much. In the long run I think it may be worth the extra money the investment cast cost.

 

[BrownBear]

Good sharp files make a huge difference. So big in fact, that you need a pretty clear idea how far to go before you start, just so you don't go too far. Wonder how I learned that?

 

[Zonie]

streetsniper
I can't say how thin is thin enough. A lot of it depends on the period that the gun your making fits into.
If I had to hold up my thumb and give a thickness I would say that if your trigger guard was a sand casting you should measure its thickness now and subtract .030 to .050 from that value.

The finished guard shouldn't be so thin that it would be easily dented or damaged but it also shouldn't be just enough thinner than the casting was to remove the rough surfaces.

If I might say something about the Investment castings.
These are much nearer to the finished size than a sand casting but a word of caution here.

Many of the investment castings are cast using bronze instead of brass.
While these seem to have about the same color as brass they do have some nasty qualities.
They are harder to file and when your filing if you have been wondering if it is brass or bronze the bronze will have a "slick" or "greasy" resistance to the file. With brass, you can feel the file "bite" into the material.
Of course, either material will file much easier than steel but bronze has (IMO) a major problem.

It does not like to be bent. At all. Without breaking.
Heating and quenching, heating and slow cooling...nothing seems to soften it so that it can be bent.

This can be a major issue if the trigger guard needs to be bent to match your stocks contour.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

And the bronze looks different than the brass too. It doesn't mellow out or patina the same. I can look at the guns in my safe and easily pick out the brass furniture from the bronze. I think the sand cast brass is worth the extra work myself but I also don't mind filing all that much either.

 

[srottman]

Hi Jim,
Funny you bring up trigger guards, I getting ready to work on my first set for a poor boy. Iam assuming they also should be filed thin. on another subject while I got you,I have seen some screws and the upper cock screw blued the rest of the iron browned. These were not pictures of orginal rifles. I know there has been the discussion of its your rifle build it the way you like it. I do like the blueing on the screws, but is it out of line as far as an orginal or were some of them like that.

 

[Goldhunter]

Hmm. Didn't realize that. I've been looking at a couple from MBS, I guess I'll call them and ask what their Invest Cast is, Brass or bronze.

 

[Zonie]

"...I do like the blueing on the screws, but is it out of line as far as an orginal or were some of them like that."
-----------
Hmm. Maybe some of the other members will chime in on this but I don't think anyone really knows.

I like the contrast between the blued screws and the brown finished parts but that is just me talking.

The reason I don't think anyone really knows about this when speaking of American arms is because most of them long ago browned naturally. That is, the parts that were "left in the white" and "blued" have rusted into a natural brown.

The few guns I've read of that they know were blued were found by looking at the protected areas of the metal, like the underside of a barrel from a full stocked rifle. There, traces of bluing still exist so we can make a pretty good guess that the barrel was originally blued.

 

[Vaino]

I'm confused {nothing new} as to what mat'ls are in the various TGs...sandcast and investment cast. For my second LR I purchased an investment cast TG which turned out to be bronze and is "aging" much differently than brass. Thereafter I only bought sandcast brass TGs which require a lot of labor to finish. Then used Chambers' TGs which are investment cast but are yellow brass. Used some of Reeves Goehring's TGs which are also investment cast and are also yellow brass. Outside of these two, what are the investment cast TGs that are sold by other suppliers made of? Is that reddish- dark yellow bronze still being used for TGs? When it "ages" it turns sort of pink which clashes w/ the yellow brass....Fred

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

This has been my experience, too. All you can do is ask the suppliers, but often they don't which metal is being used. My understanding--and it may be outdated by now-is that sand cast furniture is always made from real yellow brass and wax cast most often is that bronze material. I wonder why they use the bronze anyway. It definitely does age strangely and doesn't belong on a muzzleloader.

 

[vern castle]

I hope that i am not out of line to ask this here.
I recently finished a rifle with an iron trigger guard. I need to make some modifications to be able to shoot this rifle comfortably. Can sand cast iron be welded?

Thanks,

Vern

 

[Zonie]

If your TG is sand cast steel it can be welded. If it is cast iron (unlikely) it will weld very poorly.

 

[fitter]

Reaves furniture is sand cast yellow brass.

 

[Vaino]

Thanks...Goehring's TGs are so smooth and unlike other sand cast TGs, that I mistakenly thought they were investment cast.....Fred

 

[Goldhunter]

Where do you get these gentlemen's TGs?? I'm assuming Chambers only come with his kits. What about Reeves Goehring's?

 

[Vaino]

Reaves Goehring's tel. no...717-684-2022. His mounts are cast from originals and are made from very soft yellow brass. Chambers' mounts can be purchased separately and are possibly the best available, are cast from yellow brass in a limited number of styles......Fred

 

[bingo1952]

Also have dedicated files. A file that has been used on steel or iron does not cut as well as one that is used only on brass.

 

[fitter]

It has to do with the type of facing sand used in the mold at the foundry. I used to live near Reaves and we discussed this years ago. Just got some castings myself from him.-fitter,AKA California Kid

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

If it is truly cast iron you might be able to braze it. Probably won't look all that great though.