Triple Se7en - HISTORIC???

Why do some people have to try and reinvent "traditional muzzleloading".

Why the endless "What If"?

I guess the real thing just isn't good enough or interesting enough for some?

 

[Josh Smith]

Why do some people have to try and reinvent "traditional muzzleloading".

Why the endless "What If"?

I guess the real thing just isn't good enough or interesting enough for some?

Hello,

Please see my relatively lengthy post above.

It's not about reinventing anything; I never plan to use the stuff.

It's about history that will be forgotten if not researched and preserved right now; the stuff that's been swept into the corners.

I'm not trying to change anything. This is just research and I've learned a lot.

Josh

 

[JMinnerath]

Yes, this forum is about muzzle loaders and using black powder.Which just happens to be a carbon based low order explosive.
Arcane reasoning placed a lot of restrictions on regular black powder, so the powder companies introduced compounds that would be "similar", but make it easier to meet regulations for shipment and handling, etc.
The pyrodex family of propellants is also carbon based, but gets its carbon from different compounds than BP.
The chemistry of explosives is a really specialized field, way more complicated than we need or want to get into here.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Now here's some interesting thoughts on sulphur.

Sulphur is in blackpowder. It is also used since ancient times to preserve food (we still have "sulphated" fruits and vegetables). Sulphur was burned in empty wine amphora, casks and barrels to prevent it turning to vinegar (Homer describes "fumigation" in the Odyssey). It kills many bacteria, wild yeasts and some insects. The fumes were linked to the god Hephaestus, god of fire and volcanoes. And he was also the god of craftsmen and smiths.

The Romans adopted most of the Greek gods, but their name for Hephaestus was "Vulcan". Goodyear found adding sulphur to rubber made it tougher, and he called the process "Vulcanization".

So how natural is it to use sulphur in our powder? Honoring the smiths who formed the firearms, driving away bacteria and nasty insects.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Looking at the MSDS, I'm showing, for Triple Se7en, charcoal. No sugar anyplace.

I'm not exactly sure if I can say what's all in it, due to the rules. It's not black powder, but the MSDS gives a complete formulation, minus the percentages of each.

Josh

I'm pretty sure 777 uses fructose.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Doesn't mention any "ose" on the MSDS. Fruct-, gluc-, sucr-, dextr-, or malt-. It is just an arrangement of Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen, but organic molecules don't hop out of an explosion where they didn't previously exist.

You can make a dandy explosive with sugar, but I don't think they have.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Doesn't mention any "ose" on the MSDS. Fruct-, gluc-, sucr-, dextr-, or malt-.

What about "verb". :wink:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I've read it so many times that I assumed it was right.

Would Hodgdon give the real formula?

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've read it so many times that I assumed it was right.

Would Hodgdon give the real formula?

No, but federal law says the MSDS must list all hazardous compounds in a product. Sugar is not usually considered as such.

They do say "Other ingredients are trade secrets, but can be disclosed per 29CFR 1910.1200". So it's posted somewhere at Hodgdon.

Also, they state "Triple Seven has it's own oxygen supply . . . " which most likely is the potassium perchlorate, but it could also be a sugar. Hmmmmm.

 

[JMinnerath]

Somebody asked above what the sulfur was for.
BP can be made without it.
The addition of sulfur to the mixture lowers the ignition point substantially, depending on the ratio.
I think that's one of the reasons the sulfurless substitutes are harder to light off.
I've always wondered just how the initial discovery was made, could have been by accident.
I know we made a lot of accidental discoveries in the chem lab, a lot we could never reproduce :rotf:

 

[kelleyjk]

Why do some people have to try and reinvent "traditional muzzleloading".

Why the endless "What If"?

I guess the real thing just isn't good enough or interesting enough for some?

I fully expect to read about young Master Josh blowing something up (like his face) or getting handled by the ATF.

This same speculation goes on, on them other furims as well. Im thinkin were gettin laughed at.

 

[hanshi]

Hmmph! If it can't be set off by a flint, it isn't worth talking about, IMHO.

 

[gordy]

Don"t know that this is of any value or interest to the conversation , but was it ? Cleanshot that was the first sub to hit the market that didn"t have charcoal and/or sulphur and potasium nitrate in the formula ? It never amounted to much as the shelf life was extremey short and It was supposed to be a "sugar" base compound ? The name changed as did the headquaters of the co. the last place was Fiorida that I recall . :idunno:

 

[Josh Smith]

Why do some people have to try and reinvent "traditional muzzleloading".

Why the endless "What If"?

I guess the real thing just isn't good enough or interesting enough for some?

I fully expect to read about young Master Josh blowing something up (like his face) or getting handled by the ATF.

This same speculation goes on, on them other furims as well. Im thinkin were gettin laughed at.

Laughed at by whom?

Have you read my long treatise above?

Blew myself up once, well before 9/11 and the laws. It hurt. I have respect for the stuff, and won't be playing with that stuff again. This was in relation to rocket fuel, but close enough. The end result is the same, a well.

Do you often feel people are laughing at you? :blah:

Josh

P.S. Thanks, all, for the added info! J.S.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Don"t know that this is of any value or interest to the conversation , but was it ? Cleanshot that was the first sub to hit the market that didn"t have charcoal and/or sulphur and potasium nitrate in the formula ? It never amounted to much as the shelf life was extremey short and It was supposed to be a "sugar" base compound ? The name changed as did the headquaters of the co. the last place was Fiorida that I recall . :idunno:

Cleanshot is owned by Hodgdon, and is called APP..American Pioneer Powder now.

You might be thinking of Clearshot.

 

[gordy]

Well , I was close ! :redface: Anyone here know if the "sugar" base is factual? :idunno:

 

[Josh Smith]

I am not showing any sort of sugar on the MSDS, unless it's what they made the charcoal from.

Josh

 

[JMinnerath]

An MSDS sheet does NOT show anything if it isn't harmful or dangerous in some manner in and of itself.
Various sugars have been used for ages in the manufacture of different explosives and gun powders.

 

[necchi]

"You might be thinking of Clearshot."

Suied out of business by Hodgdon for replicating the "pellet" shaped projectile out of paten rules.

Started again as A.P.P. and is makeing "square" shaped things to stuff down the barrel.
The charcoal base is/was Orange peel pulp, aka; ascorbic acid.
Extremely hygroscopic,, :barf:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Pretty sure APP is Cleanshot.