Triple seven in my Lyman GPR?

[rodwha]

777 is tricky. Velocity is usually lower then BP. That lets the barrel rise more before the ball exits to hit high. It does NOT like any compression so it must just be touched by the ball or bullet. In BP cartridges you usually can't get enough in to equal BP.
I will give you all a hint for Pyrodex, good stuff but it breaks in shipment. I use a mesh cloth over a box frame to screen a new jug. I was getting poor results as the jug got lower to find fines of powder near the bottom. I get a large pile of fines that I burn up. Accuracy has increased a bunch. Pyrodex needs a little compression so I made a spring loaded tool to seat by putting it on the ramrod once the ball is down to get the same pressure each time. I push to bottom the spring. Works with real BP too. My friend throws his rod down and I told him some day the gun will fire from whacking the powder. Even smokeless can go off if struck.
Several things cause higher impacts, A heavier bullet or a slower one. It is when the projectile leaves the muzzle in recoil. What you feel at your shoulder says nothing. Putting more powder to add to bullet weight has the same affect and all the powder will not burn before the end of the barrel. Adjust so all powder is consumed at 3" from the muzzle.
We tried more once to have flares shoot out and burn in the grass. Velocity went down big time.

Actually Triple 7 gives much higher velocities than most black powders with the exception of Swiss and Olde Eynsford, but we are talking just barely lower.

Also the compression issue is with metallic cartridge loading. They used to state that to load in any other firearm to seat firmly, which I do and can say there isn’t anything erratic going on as the group’s are the same and the POI is the same as when I use Olde E.

I’m not even sure what this is supposed to mean:

“In BP cartridges you usually can't get enough in to equal BP.”

Triple 7 weighs considerably less than any BP but gives the performance level of the more energetic stuff so the same volume of T7 will give much higher velocities than say standard Goex and be close to what Swiss or Olde E would give.

 

[Col. Batguano]

There are plenty of videos all over the net of people doing foolish things with muzzle loaders in deliberate attempts to blow them up. From what I've seen, these things are a lot stronger than we give them credit for. That's not to say we shouldn't be cautious and prudent, but a small overcharge (like a double charge) didn't yield the catastrophe I expected in any of the stuff that I saw.

 

[Rat]

777 sucks. Anyhow, on burnt patches, another trick is to use two felt wads under the ball instead of one. My Jeager will burn patches using one wonder-wad under the ball, over 110 grains of 2f Swiss, but with two wads you can re-use the patches.

 

[rodwha]

I’ve quite liked T7 in both revolvers. I haven’t used it much at all in my .50 cal Deerstalker. I was mostly burning Pyrodex (which I can’t stand) just breaking it in. What makes it suck in a rifle? And if through handguns too, why?

 

[45man]

Every thing I post is for being safe and finding accuracy. I have been tossed over it. I will dispute every dangerous thing posted with any gun. The worst is a response that "I do it all the time". The net is the worst place to find truth.

 

[Stantheman86]

I just bought a pound of 777 at Dunhams to use in my beater Pedersoli 1863 Springfield. $25 a can, I can pull it right off the shelf and I can get a couple hundred shots out of it. For those times when I don't feel like bringing out the "unmentionables " but don't want to use up any of my real Black, so I'll fill up my plastic end cap things and put bullets in them, and go have fun for a couple hours.

I only use the real deal Holy Black in my favorite or real nice front stuffers but many, many thousands of pounds of Pyrodex and 777 are burned up every year in all kinds of firearms.

 

[45man]

I’ve quite liked T7 in both revolvers. I haven’t used it much at all in my .50 cal Deerstalker. I was mostly burning Pyrodex (which I can’t stand) just breaking it in. What makes it suck in a rifle? And if through handguns too, why?

Pyrodex is actually very good. 777 does NOT like any compression. I do not know if it breaks into fines or not. I suspect it does. I screen Pyrodex to remove fines. Then just a little compression loading.

 

[rodwha]

Pyrodex is actually very good. 777 does NOT like any compression. I do not know if it breaks into fines or not. I suspect it does. I screen Pyrodex to remove fines. Then just a little compression loading.

I’ve seen a few people claim T7 doesn’t like compression. What Hodgdon said about it was in anything BUT a cartridge to seat the projectile firmly. For cartridges it was very specific with light compression. I emailed asking for clarification on what “firmly” was but never received a reply.

Consistency is important and I wouldn’t know how to be consistent with some sort of relaxed seating so I firmly seat my projectiles and haven’t seen any difference then when I shot other powders. The group size is the same and the POI is the same when using Olde E at 15 yds.

What are you (and others) seeing, and how would you describe the seating pressure to achieve the right amount of compression (or lack of)?

I’ve also read of the horrible crud ring. I haven’t seen it, but then it might well take more than what a revolver can load. But I’ve also seen a few people state they believe it’s due to a hotter ignition of those types we don’t speak much of. I certainly haven’t worked with it in my rifle enough to say one way or the other.

Oh, and my dislike of Pyrodex is mostly due to the fouling it leaves on my revolvers. It has a sticky gooey feel to it. But I also haven’t seen consistent velocity figures for it. At times it provides numbers in line with energetic powders such as Swiss and at others much lower figures akin to standard Goex. I don’t want to keep a bunch of different powders and like that I can visually discern T7 from Olde E, and I use this in all of my guns, and since my revolvers are also intended to perform hunting duty I require a known performance. According to posted velocities my (weighed) 33 grns of Olde E (3F) and my 195 grn bullet I’m likely getting 350-425 ft/lbs, which I feel comfortable with. With Pyrodex P I might be getting something like that or it might below 300 ft/lbs which I would not feel comfy with.

 

[Jay]

I have shot triple seven for years and I never noticed my patch is burning I’ve only used up to 75 grains though , in my club most the top shooters use triple seven but the thing I like the most about it is the cleanup that’s my two cents good luck to you

 

[Bad Karma]

From the triple 7 website loading comments...

“Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%.”

“Flintlock: To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex. Consult the loading data in this brochure to determine the proper charge for the caliber firearm used and the chosen projectile. The main powder charge should be reduced by 5 grains to compensate for the addition of the priming powder. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder. Make certain that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile. *See WARNING below.

Percussion Firearms: Select the proper charge from the loads listed in this brochure. Set powder measure as indicated. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder . Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile.”
“*WARNING: Failure to follow the recommendations for use of Triple Seven and Pyrodex could result in injury and/or death to the shooter or bystanders and damage to property.”

I’ve had good success with triple 7 in ruger old army and 1860 army revolvers, also in conical shooting rifles. As long as you load the same volume as black it seems to work well and does provide strong velocities compared to GOEX. That being said, I much prefer Swiss powder for all applications.

 

[Stantheman86]

Before I knew any better I just loaded my various Uberti cap and ballers with the recommended charge with Pyrodex P or 777 and just fired them. I didn't shoot enough to notice any increase in fouling.

 

[Rat]

I’ve quite liked T7 in both revolvers. I haven’t used it much at all in my .50 cal Deerstalker. I was mostly burning Pyrodex (which I can’t stand) just breaking it in. What makes it suck in a rifle? And if through handguns too, why?

I guess it sucks for me, because the one and only time I tried it, I got a chain-fire in my revolver, which blew the front sight and the loading lever latch off the barrel. It's never happened before or since, and I've been shooting that revolver with black powder for 30 years.

 

[jimhallam]

One of the things which worries me about BP substitutes is the ambulance-chasing lawyers.
If, for example, I was using an Italian repro revolver clearly marked "Black Powder only" and had a problem could any claim be rejected? I did "e" a number of gun makers, powder makers and also corresponded with Marty Murphy at the NMLRA, because substitites are being usedmore frequently (especially with the problems of carriage of "explosives") -- - not just for ML but also "cowboy shooting". I have as yet not received any response which CLEARLY states that using a BP substitute in a firearm clearly marked "BP ONLY" is acceptable.

Here in the UK many Club ranges do not permit the use of B.P. -- which makes it impossible for a "serious" shooter to develop a load for National Competitions under MLAGB Regs.
At one time one could specify a "Service Load" for a firearm, provide loaded ammunition and the Proof Houses would then work up a Proof load based on that "Service Load" and mark the bundhook accordingly. Since the advent of the pan-European C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes au Feu") that had not been possible.
Even the two Proof Houses have not been able to come up with an answer -- as there are no C.I.P. specifications available. There was some research done some time ago on Pyrodex in a .45/70 but other than the report it has not led to any new specifications.

Any ideas on the subject would be much appreciated.

 

[Stantheman86]

They restrict you to using muzzleloading firearms but you can't use Black Powder????

Its somewhat the opposite in some states here, Blackhorn 209 is not allowed for hunting in some areas, and in Pennsylvania there is a Flintlock only season which precludes the use of subs unless you carefully pour a blackpowder "kicker" down , which to me just means, just use BP then.

 

[45man]

You should just be firm seating 777. Feel the ball is how I can describe it. Too much compression will break the grains. No air space but don't lean on it or beat it with a rod.

 

[jimhallam]

Hi Stan
I obviously wasn't clear enough -- - sorry!
On SOME U.K. ranges (mainly indoor, of course) you can't use B.P. due to the smoke and "perceived" fire risks... and possibly the Insurance Policy for the range.
MY concern is that if one has a firearm stamped "Black Powder Only" and which bears C.I.P. Proofmarks and THEN uses something other than B.P. what would be the legal situation in the event of any accident / problem ?
I assume that the insurers would be able to repudaite the insurance cover.
I thought that the USA might be more litigacious than the U.K. (but we are getting worse as more and more solicitors/lawyers get on the bandwaggon of advertising the "No Win, No Fee" claims) so it intrigues me that there does not seem to be any standardised R&Rs on the use of BP substitutes where the firearm is marked for "BP Only".

I hope that I have clarified things

good shooting (with whatever powder you use!).

 

[Zonie]

When lawyers are involved, I don't think anyone knows if the "Black Powder Only" would allow the synthetic black powders to be used or not.
That said, most of the new factory made guns Owners Manual's do say that the synthetic powders are OK to use.

The primary reason that warning is marked on the barrels of muzzleloaders and C&B pistols is to tell the owner that they must not use smokeless powder in the gun. As we all should know, smokeless powder of any kind is a recipe for disaster.