Trying to buy everything I need to shoot my new .44

[PropanAbuser]

Hello everyone. I recently got my first black powder. It's an Intercontinental .44 flintlock pistol. Should I go with .429 or .433 balls? Or is there a better size? And .010 or .015 patches? And I want a powder measure that's not adjustable. Which one is good?

I think that covers everything I need to shoot.

What is everything I need to clean it well?

Thank you very much

 

[Grenadier1758]

@PropanAbuser, I am a firm believer that all of us need to have a reasonably precise digital caliper to measure barrels, ball diameter, patch thickness and the like.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/dovetail-size.151345/#post-2135351
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/strange-issue-cleaning-50-cal.147064/#post-2071848
In a lot of these pistols, I tend to go to a smaller ball with a thicker patch.

For load development, I prefer an adjustable volume measure. There are good ones suitable for pistol charges available from Deer Creek and other suppliers.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...-plus-powder-measure-rec.123046/#post-1688214
Appears to be in stock too!

 

[new2bp]

A "not adjustable powder measure" on the cheap is a fired 223 case (30gr) or 308 case (~53gr depending on exact brass dimensions inside) or 30-06 case (~63gr depending again on brass inside). Or, any of the cases based on those will be similar if they aren't cut down.

For something much nicer, check the classifieds area of this forum - there are some very talented craftsmen hanging around here...

 

[BoomStick]

Ball should be a little under diameter across the lands. Patch plus ball should be just a couple thousandths over that diameter. Depth of rifling may determine how many over before loading is too tight. What the gun likes often takes some trial and error on the range.

Just like ball and patch combination needs worked out, so does the powder charge. An adjustable measure is something (IMHO) that every shooter should have in their box. After you figure out the load then a fixed measure is all you need.

For cleaning...jag, bore brush and something appropriate for the gun's breech. Otherwise it's just consumables, like patches and oils.

 

[BoomStick]

A "not adjustable powder measure" on the cheap is a fired 223 case (30gr) or 308 case (~53gr depending on exact brass dimensions inside) or 30-06 case (~63gr depending again on brass inside).

I wouldn't load that 44 pistol with more than 50 grains of powder...

 

[Justin.44]

Congratulations on the purchase! Being a flintlock you will definitely need real black powder, the substitutes won't work well in it.

I would recommend using an adjustable powder measure at least while you work up your best load for the pistol. It's also very likely not going to be your last muzzleloader purchase so you'll need one eventually to work with varying calibers/loads.

Seek out a club near you! Post a thread in the new member introductions forum and you'll likely get in touch with some guys in your area.

As far as cleaning goes there's tons of info on here if you use the search function and read the links posted by @Grenadier1758. Of course you have to clean thoroughly but it isn't as difficult or time consuming as most new BP shooters expect.

Good luck and have fun! -Justin

 

[PropanAbuser]

@PropanAbuser, I am a firm believer that all of us need to have a reasonably precise digital caliper to measure barrels, ball diameter, patch thickness and the like.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/dovetail-size.151345/#post-2135351
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/strange-issue-cleaning-50-cal.147064/#post-2071848
In a lot of these pistols, I tend to go to a smaller ball with a thicker patch.

For load development, I prefer an adjustable volume measure. There are good ones suitable for pistol charges available from Deer Creek and other suppliers.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...-plus-powder-measure-rec.123046/#post-1688214
Appears to be in stock too!

Thanks. I happen to have a pretty nice pair of analog calipers. I'm surprised you specified digital, I've never like electric stuff but there must be a good reason to have one.

@PropanAbuser, I am a firm believer that all of us need to have a reasonably precise digital caliper to measure barrels, ball diameter, patch thickness and the like.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/dovetail-size.151345/#post-2135351
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/strange-issue-cleaning-50-cal.147064/#post-2071848
In a lot of these pistols, I tend to go to a smaller ball with a thicker patch.

For load development, I prefer an adjustable volume measure. There are good ones suitable for pistol charges available from Deer Creek and other suppliers.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...-plus-powder-measure-rec.123046/#post-1688214
Appears to be in stock too!

You make a good case for the calipers and the adjustable rather than unadjustable powder measure.

I happen to have a decent pair of analog calipers. Not sure how much handy calipers come in for the inside of the bore, I would think you would need bore calipers similar to what guys who rebuild engines use, just smaller .

Those were a good read. Already learninf a lot! Didn't know what dry balling was, I can see how that would be a big prob

 

[PropanAbuser]

Ball should be a little under diameter across the lands. Patch plus ball should be just a couple thousandths over that diameter. Depth of rifling may determine how many over before loading is too tight. What the gun likes often takes some trial and error on the range.

Just like ball and patch combination needs worked out, so does the powder charge. An adjustable measure is something (IMHO) that every shooter should have in their box. After you figure out the load then a fixed measure is all you need.

For cleaning...jag, bore brush and something appropriate for the gun's breech. Otherwise it's just consumables, like patches and oils.

Don't think my pistol has rifling or a breech.

Since I do already have calipers, I guess I need a jag, patch jag, and a ball puller as far as things that get shoved down the bore for maitenence/cleaning.

After some authentic black powder (the pistol kind, not the rifle kind), .433 balls (nobody clarified the proper size, I'm guessing that's right), some .010 patches, an adjustable powder measure, some jag patches, maybe a flash hole pick or just some mini pipe cleaners, some windex, and some rem oil, and finally I should be good to go for a while it sounds!

Thank you so much, and thank you to @Grenadier1758 and @new2bp as well!! I love learning more so I really appreciate all of you all's time

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thanks. I happen to have a pretty nice pair of analog calipers. I'm surprised you specified digital, I've never like electric stuff but there must be a good reason to have one.

You make a good case for the calipers and the adjustable rather than unadjustable powder measure.

I happen to have a decent pair of analog calipers. Not sure how much handy calipers come in for the inside of the bore, I would think you would need bore calipers similar to what guys who rebuild engines use, just smaller .

Those were a good read. Already learninf a lot! Didn't know what dry balling was, I can see how that would be a big prob

I recommend the digital calipers as many people have difficulties reading an analog Vernier caliper.

Since you have what may be a smoothbore, you can measure the bore diameter with the inside tips of your calipers. This measurement really doesn't have to be all that precise. I hesitate to make a specific suggestion for ball diameter until the bore is measured. Land to land on rifled bores. I would then choose a ball 0.010" less than the measured diameter to 0.015" less. In a pistol, smaller is better for ease of loading with a patch thickness of the difference. The patch will compress to fill the bore.

 

[PropanAbuser]

I recommend the digital calipers as many people have difficulties reading an analog Vernier caliper.

Since you have what may be a smoothbore, you can measure the bore diameter with the inside tips of your calipers. This measurement really doesn't have to be all that precise. I hesitate to make a specific suggestion for ball diameter until the bore is measured. Land to land on rifled bores. I would then choose a ball 0.010" less than the measured diameter to 0.015" less. In a pistol, smaller is better for ease of loading with a patch thickness of the difference. The patch will compress to fill the bore.

I never noticed before that calipers had an inside side. I'm a total amateur I guess. Haha. Pretty handy feature.

Anyways looks like .46 if I put pressure on it. I think I'm seeing this right.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@PropanAbuser, since you are measuring metal, putting excess pressure on your calipers may add a few thousandths to your reading. On metal I like a slip fit with the calipers.

Dutch Schoultz (the author of "Black Powder Accuracy") and I have had a difference of opinion on the pressure one applies with the measuring device on patching material. He liked to get the compressed measure and he applied quite a bit of pressure. In my opinion, I wanted a slight amount of compression to see if the material would compress, but not so much as to abuse a precision measuring tool. There is no way that I would apply enough pressure to compress fabric to the 0.005" or 0.0025" between the lands and the ball. Besides if one uses a pure lead ball, the patch will engrave the ball between the lands and the ball. I do recommend that new shooters and owners of their first muzzleloading firearm get Dutch's System. Even if I may have a difference of opinion on some topics and he focuses on percussion firearms, the information with respect to load development and care of a muzzleloading firearm is worth the cost of the 94 pages of more information than I would want to try to place on the Forum.
http://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
Now for my thoughts on the ball size for your pistol. Verify that you have a smoothbore. Let's see the muzzle. In any event, you should start out with an easy to load patch and ball. I would get 0.440" balls. I would also get unlubricated pre-cut patches that are 0.015" thick to be lubricated right before loading. These patches will compress slightly while minimizing gas cutting. Lubricate the patch with any of a variety of simple patch lubes. The simplest being spit and the next being water with a squirt of dish washing soap or a mix of 50% dish soap and water. Even with these relatively easy to load patches and balls, a short starter will be of benefit to the loading process.

 

[PropanAbuser]

@PropanAbuser, since you are measuring metal, putting excess pressure on your calipers may add a few thousandths to your reading. On metal I like a slip fit with the calipers.

Dutch Schoultz (the author of "Black Powder Accuracy") and I have had a difference of opinion on the pressure one applies with the measuring device on patching material. He liked to get the compressed measure and he applied quite a bit of pressure. In my opinion, I wanted a slight amount of compression to see if the material would compress, but not so much as to abuse a precision measuring tool. There is no way that I would apply enough pressure to compress fabric to the 0.005" or 0.0025" between the lands and the ball. Besides if one uses a pure lead ball, the patch will engrave the ball between the lands and the ball. I do recommend that new shooters and owners of their first muzzleloading firearm get Dutch's System. Even if I may have a difference of opinion on some topics and he focuses on percussion firearms, the information with respect to load development and care of a muzzleloading firearm is worth the cost of the 94 pages of more information than I would want to try to place on the Forum.
http://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
Now for my thoughts on the ball size for your pistol. Verify that you have a smoothbore. Let's see the muzzle. In any event, you should start out with an easy to load patch and ball. I would get 0.440" balls. I would also get unlubricated pre-cut patches that are 0.015" thick to be lubricated right before loading. These patches will compress slightly while minimizing gas cutting. Lubricate the patch with any of a variety of simple patch lubes. The simplest being spit and the next being water with a squirt of dish washing soap or a mix of 50% dish soap and water. Even with these relatively easy to load patches and balls, a short starter will be of benefit to the loading process.

Rem oil sounds like a decent patch lube. Thats what I got.

I guess it does have rifling Can't believe I have a rifled flintlock. Seems like an oxymoron to me.

I'm can't get a consistent reading in there. I tried spinning the bore around the jaws and hoping it would end up in one place but it didn't. I cant clearly see where the high and low points are like I can with normal rifling so I have no idea how to get an accurate measure here. Guessing i can't know what the proper balls are to use until I get to the bottom of measuring this.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@PropanAbuser, do you have an even or odd number of lands?

If even, mark the muzzle of the barrel at the lands with a wet erase marker. Now you can measure the land-to-land diameter.

Measure the groove diameter at the space between the lands. To get groove depth subtract the land-to-land diameter from the groove diameter and divide result by two.

Based on the land-to-land diameter, select a ball sized 0.015" to 0.020" less. I prefer to use loose ball patch combinations in pistols for ease of loading. Starting loads for new pistol shooters should have smaller balls and thicker patches. At least 0.015 to 0.018" thick.

I am going to guess that a ball of 0.433" wrapped in a 0.015" patch lubricated with a convenient patch lube pushed by a charge of 25 grains of 3fg black powder will be a good start. The 3fg will also work in the pan. Do not use any of the substitute powders as they are hard to ignite in flintlocks. No need to put you through that kind of frustration.

You could go tighter if you have your pistol well supported in a loading stand. I am going to guess that a ball of 0.433" will be pretty close.

 

[PropanAbuser]

I can't tell with the rifling. It's not like normal rifling where you can easily see the hills and valleys. Its a mess. I'll try to look at it under some better light soon, maybe that will help.

 

[Bad Karma]

Rem oil sounds like a decent patch lube. Thats what I got.

I guess it does have rifling Can't believe I have a rifled flintlock. Seems like an oxymoron to me.

I'm can't get a consistent reading in there. I tried spinning the bore around the jaws and hoping it would end up in one place but it didn't. I cant clearly see where the high and low points are like I can with normal rifling so I have no idea how to get an accurate measure here. Guessing i can't know what the proper balls are to use until I get to the bottom of measuring this.

I’m not a flintlock guy but there are many many rifled flintlock arms, both original and replicas.