tubing for barrels

thank you for a very well reasoned, rational, and well presented response.

while i might differ a bit here or there, i think the overriding position here is one of what is a reasonable load.

from everything i have read, and experienced it appears that black powder rifles do best in accuracy using moderate loads, and in some cases they would be seen by some as light loads.

we all know folks that could destroy a crowbar in the deep end of a swimming pool, and they are the folks that probably blow up the vast majority of barrels no matter what they are made of.

i thought i was done with this topic, but for the record this is what i will probably do.

i will build a barrel with a dom tube from a first world supplier, using a low carbon allow
and i will know what welding process they use.

i will rifle it, and then fully anneal it

and when i use it i will be using moderate loads of FFg powder (50cal)...

and i will not be taking it to the range so no one beside me need be put at risk, and

i will not sell it as a functional weapon.

at some point we ought to be able to make our own decisions, take personal responsibility, and live with the consequences.

thanks
bob g

 

[FL-Flinter]

Bob,
I am by no means suggesting or implying the use of anything other than a gun barrel supplied by a reputable gun barrel maker. The point I was trying to make is that this topic requires a lot of extremely complex calculations based on the thorough evaluation of both known facts and theoretical calculations based on those facts but every time this topic comes up it seems to drag-up even more disinformation and nonsense before turning into a completely worthless chest-thumping urination contest.

Gun barrels are essentially tubes but they are also assemblies bringing with them the additional variables of fabrication changes, non-standard connection methods and through-wall penetrations to go along with the basic variables of alloy properties, wall thickness, internal stresses, external stresses, ambient and operating temperature ranges, load dynamics and on the list goes. The alloy properties are used in the calculations to determine the working properties of the assembly but the alloy properties do NOT themselves dictate any working property of the assembly so any reference attempting to relate the alloy properties directly to the properties of a gun barrel assembly is not only wrong but downright dangerous. That said, you are certainly free to do as you wish but understand that you are taking a huge risk to your safety and the safety of everyone around you.
Mark

 

[jdkerstetter]

......urination contest.

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Thanks!!! I needed that this morning! Enjoy, J.D.

 

[George]

i will build a barrel with a dom tube from a first world supplier, using a low carbon allow
and i will know what welding process they use.

i will rifle it, and then fully anneal it

and when i use it i will be using moderate loads of FFg powder (50cal)...

and i will not be taking it to the range so no one beside me need be put at risk, and

i will not sell it as a functional weapon.

at some point we ought to be able to make our own decisions, take personal responsibility, and live with the consequences.

Just curious... you do understand that if you did all this and "proved" anything, it would be only to yourself, and only for that one barrel, don't you? You wouldn't seriously expect me to use your experiment as a basis of decisions I make about DOM barrels in general, would you?

Spence

 

heaven's no, i would not expect anyone to use such a barrel, and i realize it would not prove anything other than one barrel seems to be hold up.

i would not sell one, or make them for others.

nor would i suggest anyone do so.

fair enough?

bob g

 

to be quite frank, given the litigation climate
these days, i have no idea why anyone would build a black powder barrel for sale on the open market.

barrels for smokeless is another story, there is some control over what is being asked of the barrel.

black powder? no friggin way! sorry guys but i read of too many guys using magnum loads of fffg in 50cal and up, and have even read of a few that have tried to include ffffg. add to that somebody lodging a 650 gr. projectile with airgap and i don't care what you make the barrel out of it likely is going to fail. then what?

yes eventually it might be proven the shooter was an idiot, but... how many thousands of dollars would a manufacture have to spend in defense of his product? one of those things where you are guilty until you can prove your innocence.


also i really enjoy the theoretical discussion, however i realize this might not be the forum for such discussion.

thanks
bob g

 

[jdkerstetter]

I believe the guys we have building barrels do it for the love of the hobby. They certainly aren't getting rich off of the deal.

They aren't too worried about getting sued as they don't have much. It's easy to find a lawyer to represent you when you have a case against a somebody who has millions but much harder when your suing somebody who has little to give. It's the whole blood from a stone thing.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jerrywh]

The main defence against that is a LLC corp. They can be perced but it isn't easy and like you said if there isn't much money to be had foget it.
In the case negligence there could ba a manslaughter charge or negligent homicide.

 

i don't have much, but i would like to keep what little i have!

piercing a corporate vale is a cakewalk for a good atty. the only way that you can protect that vale is to spend lots of money with atty's.

corporate status is more for tax purposes and provides little protection for the small company.

all they need to do is find one instance of a business owner having used a company check to pay for a non company (personal) item and your toast.

damn few people have the discipline not to use a company check to buy something not related to the business at some point in time... even if accidental! all it takes is pulling out the company credit card by mistake while jabbering at a check out and waalaaa, the vale is no good.

even if you go back later, have the card credited and debit the personal card, there is a paper trail and it only takes once.

on the topic of a barrel maker not having much to go after, does not instill confidence in his products with me.

tough deal all the way around

bob g

 

[jdkerstetter]

We are lucky that we have guys willing to assume the "risk" though. If not we'd only have Green Mountain and we all know how their delivery rate on muzzleloader barrels has been lately. :shake:

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

that's real old world craftsmanship there. :hatsoff:
and I thought my knife makeing results are metal-art. :redface:

 

[asbrown]

I think since the "barrel" is delivered un mounted with the hole undrilled, and the whole thing not installed in any given mechanical apparatus the manufacturer could make the claim that any failure was due to improper use of his product by an inexperienced individual. Course I'm no lawyer, and I tend to think the blood from a stone defense is much more likely, :2 :stir:

 

[jdkerstetter]

I had thought about that too. Something like those imported Indian guns sold without the vent drilled. You drill it and shoot it...you assume the liability.

If the barrel maker never makes a claim that the intended purpose was to shoot it, even though we all know that's why they do it, maybe it would get 'em off the hook. Doubt it, but as you, I'm no lawyer. :idunno:

Rice's website acknowledges they know their barrels are using in functional firearms. Colerain's isn't clear. Getz really doesn't have a functional site. Rayl and Hoyt don't use one at all. Of those would Rice be the only one on the hook? Who knows?

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[matt denison]

I believe the guys we have building barrels do it for the love of the hobby.


No, they do it for the money. They are running a business, not a hobby.

 

my thinking is it a combination of the two

love of the craft and to make money

at least that is the guy i would want to build barrels for me.

one without the other and there will be problems, sooner than later.

there are certain realities in business, that being you must pay the bills and make a profit. if you can't do this, you won't make it no matter how much you love the craft. conversely if you don't love what you're doing, no amount of profit is going to keep you in the game.

i think that is the way it is in any business, especially small business.

and yes we should all be thankful for these guys. when they are gone, unless they sell out to their employee's it is unlikely their will be new entry's into the market.

i can't imagine what it might take to procure insurance for a startup barrel maker.

bob g

 

[jdkerstetter]

Maybe some do. But there are easier, less risky ways for a good machinest to make money....their skill set is highly sought after.

Have you priced custom center fire barrels as compaired to muzzleloading barrels? There's more money there.

I doubt Ed Rayl goes to the extremes he does to duplicate historically accurate barrels of any type just for money. There has to an element of seeing if one is up to the challenge. He could produce many more simple barrels and make a lot more money....he could charge more for what he does do.

Bobby Hoyt is another example. His charge for machine shop hours are far lower than you will find trying to get the heads trued on your car. Why muzzleloading barrles then? Why not a custom speed shop?

I've met a few of the barrel makers and they are not getting rich doing this for us. Greed is not always a factor.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

good business need not equate to greed!

good business is making enough money to pay all the bills, pay yourself and make a profit for the business so that it might expand or afford new equipment.

nothing greedy about that.

bob g

 

[jdkerstetter]

Agreed. Running a bussiness that is not for profit is not a good model and borders on the insane.

And in further reply to Matt, I never insinuated that these guys were making barrels as a "hobby" only that they have an interest in the hobby of muzzleloading or they wouldn't be making muzzleloading barrels.

I'm just not buying it that most of these guys are doing it this purely for profit. It's not a lucritive way for a machinist to make a living.

If North Star West, Inc. is purely a for profit business and was not delved into out of an interest in the "hobby" I doubt it would be a very sucessful endeavor. If it's a feigned interest then somebody is a good actor. :wink:

Specialized businesses take special people to run. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[matt denison]

"If it's a feigned interest then somebody is a good actor. "

Thanks for the credit, I think....

It was a love for the hobby and firearms that got me into this in the first place. In the meantime I have to figure out a way to make it pay the bills so I can continue. Oh, by the way, quarterly taxes are due in a couple weeks.

Making barrels is scary. Some of the conversation in the last dozen posts have the few hairs that I still have standing up. There is a lot of risk but if you want to have HC barrels on your guns then you just have to make them yourself. Since I breech every one of them myself it lessens my risk a bit. Having seen a LOT of knotheads "out there" and knowing that one of them could end up hurting himself or others by loading one full of 4F does keep me awake some nights. Speaking of DOM barrels, the main reason people use them is because they are considerably less expensive to produce. That gets us back to cutting corners for profit. I won't do it, ever.

 

[jdkerstetter]

"If it's a feigned interest then somebody is a good actor. "

Thanks for the credit, I think....

It was a love for the hobby and firearms that got me into this in the first place.....

You are welcome. :hatsoff:

I know your work and reputation and some of the things you've done for the "hobby" and suspected I was safe "using" you to make my point. :wink:

No doubt making barrels for a living is risky and I don't have the nerve for that kind of risk....especially with a family to provide for. :shake:

I can't speak to using DOM tubing for barrels as I haven't looked into it any further than this thread. I've never seen the reason to use them or been offered one that I know of. As far as cutting corners for profit....there are people like that all over unfortunately.

Enjoy, J.D.