Turning a Pedersoli Bess into a Dublin Castle Short Land Musket

[dave_person]

Hi Brokennock,
It is an ugly color but typical of black walnut. No worries, the ugliness will be gone when I stain it.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hoo Boy Howdy!!! There's a Bess in there!!

She's still pregnant and a lot of wood has to go to deliver this baby but its coming along nicely. For you you Bess aficionados, you might not have noticed the butt plate has no lug under the forward extension for a cross pin. That is because the butt plate I am using is a copy from a marine and militia musket, which is the same as those on the pattern 1769 short land muskets minus the lug. It is really not needed but I will install a cross pin in the stock for cosmetic appearance. This black walnut is not as good as I originally thought. It is very splintery and I have to really be careful with my tools. When finish is applied, it will be fine but I do wish it was English walnut. I am not going to use the Miroku trigger guard because the forward lug for the swivel is way too small and not authentic. I ordered a different guard, which should also have extra thick brass like the Dublin Castle muskets.

Nick, I use a Grizzly 15" band saw with roller guides. It is very powerful and the large throat really helps.

Gus and Nick, book alert! I am reading "Noble Volunteers" by Don Hagist. He is the managing editor for the Journal of the American Revolution (www.allthingsliberty.com). It is an in depth study of life as a British soldier during the Rev War. It really up ends a lot of myths and is well worth having in your libraries. Gus, you will appreciate that Cuthbertson was a writer of military guides but none of those guides or any other "guides for the young soldier" were official products. They were just the author's opinions and did not necessarily influence British soldiers very much. Hagist includes tables written at the time showing the heights of soldiers in regiments and you can clearly see how the tall guys went to the grenadiers and the shorter nimble guys went to the light companies. It is also interesting that recruiters were encouraged to only accept men >5' 7" tall. Moreover, they were not the "scum of the earth" that Wellesley called them but a real cross section of trades, laborers, and even professional people. The most common motivation to join was that they simply wanted to be soldiers.

dave

Hi Dave,

I'm absolutely LOVING this thread of yours and especially the technical details you explain so well!

I can personally attest to how the stock bolt that screwed into the "Thumb Piece" or wrist escutcheon weakened the Brown Bess stock, because I have to sheepishly admit I shattered the wrist on my "Brown Bess Carbine" there years ago. Yes, I mean "shattered" as two large pieces broke off. Fortunately, I found the pieces and saved them so I could fix that musket almost 20 years later. (Armorers rarely have time to work on our own stuff until it became absolutely necessary when I joined the Auld Forty Twa as a Private Soldier and needed the Bess again. Grin.) I actually had to break off the stock to get those pieces back in place and winced at the sickening cracking noise the entire time I did it. I figured out to use two pieces of 1/8" brass "all thread" rod, internally on each side of the Thumb Piece Bolt along with Acra Glas to make the wrist stronger than before and the repair was close to invisible when I finished slightly staining and refinishing the stock.

Since I did not want to ever have to repair the wrist again, I drilled a larger hole around the Thumb Piece Bolt to form a vertical column of Acra Glas around the bolt hole. THEN I did something we commonly did on Sniper and Target Rifles, but I don't know if the original stockers did it on the Brown Bess. I reamed that bolt hole a few thousandths of an inch larger than the original hole. The idea was the Bolt would not contact the interior of the wrist in recoil until/unless it flexed a bit. That ensured the Bolt would not crack the wrist during firing in the future.

Looks like I'm going to have to get my own copy of "Noble Volunteers." Thank you. There is some great info on the 18th century British Soldier in "A Soldier-like Way: The Material Culture of the British Infantry" that includes some of the things you mentioned, but I'm ALWAYS interested in more information.

One of the more common previous civilian trades for British Soldiers were Tailors, as it cost so little for the tools of that trade. Yet every year before the King's Birthday when they received their annual clothing allotment, the Regiments NEEDED those tailors to take apart and fit the uniforms for the soldiers individually. The soldiers doing the tailoring were excused from other duties so all the Soldiers of the Regiments looked their best on the King's Birthday, no matter where they were stationed world wide.

As to Cuthbertson, yes, his treatises were never official British Military authorized; but since at least one of his treatises went through three publishings, I don't see how the point can be made they weren't read that much. I guess I will look at what Don Hagist has to say about that. I do know there is a lot of good info in Cuthbertson's publications.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

PathfinderNC said:
Dave, my understanding of the wrist plate (I always called it a "Thumb piece") was that it's not just a decorative element but is that it was to reinforce the wrist. It, together with the trigger plate below 'sandwiched' the wrist with the bolt running through & securing them, like a sandwich. Is this one of it's functions?

A lot of wrist plates were engraved with unit markings .

The British Ordnance terminology was "Thumb Piece" for what many folks nowadays call the wrist plate or wrist escutcheon. (We British Artificers were/are expected to know these things. )

Yes, they were commonly engraved with each Soldier's Individual Number over the Company Designation and over the Regimental Number. This was to hold each Soldier accountable for maintaining his own musket. However, the style of these engravings varied a bit because they were always engraved after the Regiment received the muskets and issued them to the individual soldiers. Engraving was usually done by civilian contractors and possibly some Regimental Artificers.

Gus

 

[DuncNZ]

PathfinderNC said:
Dave, my understanding of the wrist plate (I always called it a "Thumb piece") was that it's not just a decorative element but is that it was to reinforce the wrist. It, together with the trigger plate below 'sandwiched' the wrist with the bolt running through & securing them, like a sandwich. Is this one of it's functions?




The British Ordnance terminology was "Thumb Piece" for what many folks nowadays call the wrist plate or wrist escutcheon. (We British Artificers were/are expected to know these things. )

Yes, they were commonly engraved with each Soldier's Individual Number over the Company Designation and over the Regimental Number. This was to hold each Soldier accountable for maintaining his own musket. However, the style of these engravings varied a bit because they were always engraved after the Regiment received the muskets and issued them to the individual soldiers. Engraving was usually done by civilian contractors and possibly some Regimental Artificers.

Gus

Hi Gus I always called it a thumb piece up until I read the preceding pages .

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus I always called it a thumb piece up until I read the preceding pages .

And you are historically correct in doing so!

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
I think Cuthbertson and others real market were the militia units not the regular army. I think that is where they made an impact and some money.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi Cutfinger ,
Welcome to our Bess appreciation club. If you read my post above about the wrist plates I mention the use for regimental markings. The marine musket had no wrist plate so those markings were engraved on the butt plate. Please continue contributing to this thread. I welcome your input.
Gus, your reasoning is critical and is the same reason I make sure there is a little slop in the fit of any rear lock bolt hole that goes through the breech plug bolster. If it is too precisely fit, it will act on the rear bolt like a jack hammer in the stock bashing the wood every time the gun is fired.

dave

 

[Rod Man]

Here comes some education!

For Real!

RM

 

[Brokennock]

Hi Brokennock,
It is an ugly color but typical of black walnut. No worries, the ugliness will be gone when I stain it.

dave

I know it and I know you'll fix that color beautifully.
I've read your process on doing so before. Someday can you explain how you arrived on your process? I would not have expected the yellow dye.

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,
I think Cuthbertson and others real market were the militia units not the regular army. I think that is where they made an impact and some money.

dave

I can see that. I would also add young Sub Alterns (extremely junior Lieutenants) and Ensigns whose fathers were not Officers and who did not have the opportunity to attend some schools like the one in Greenwich where the sons of Army and Naval Officers learned the basics of becoming an Officer, before their service academies were founded.

Gus

 

[DuncNZ]

I can see that. I would also add young Sub Alterns (extremely junior Lieutenants) and Ensigns whose fathers were not Officers and who did not have the opportunity to attend some schools like the one in Greenwich where the sons of Army and Naval Officers learned the basics of becoming an Officer, before their service academies were founded.

Gus

Subaltern (one Word) = all those ranks below the rank of Captain . In Wealthy 18 and 19th centaury families , 1st son stayed home and learnt the family business ,2nd son to the Services, 3rd son to the church . Extra sons joined the services or went exploring or both . Rank was purchased not awarded . Very little officer training was done , It was a case of who you knew not what you knew . What fox hunting club you belonged to was more important than education , but education at the "right " school was important . There were officers who brought a commission in a unit in the Americas but were disinclined to go , so they got someone else to do the job for them .
The British militia units were known as Volunteer units , and were usually outfitted in uniform and weapons by the local Squire or Lord.
I believe the rows and rows of Muskets , swords etc which you can still see lining the walls of halls and passageways in British Castles and Lords houses were kept there as a reserve , because the volunteers were not trusted to keep arms at home . Volunteer arms were usually better made and often more sofisticated than the Forces issue .

 

[DuncNZ]

When the British Navy went from Flintlocks to Cap locks , the sailors did not like the new fangled muskets . They moved about the ships in bare feet , not a problem with flints but those caps cut their feet and really hurt .

 

[Artificer]

Subaltern (one Word) = all those ranks below the rank of Captain . In Wealthy 18 and 19th centaury families , 1st son stayed home and learnt the family business ,2nd son to the Services, 3rd son to the church . Extra sons joined the services or went exploring or both . Rank was purchased not awarded . Very little officer training was done , It was a case of who you knew not what you knew . What fox hunting club you belonged to was more important than education , but education at the "right " school was important . There were officers who brought a commission in a unit in the Americas but were disinclined to go , so they got someone else to do the job for them .
The British militia units were known as Volunteer units , and were usually outfitted in uniform and weapons by the local Squire or Lord.
I believe the rows and rows of Muskets , swords etc which you can still see lining the walls of halls and passageways in British Castles and Lords houses were kept there as a reserve , because the volunteers were not trusted to keep arms at home . Volunteer arms were usually better made and often more sofisticated than the Forces issue .

You're right, Subaltern is one word. In the 18th century British Army, though, it was actually a rank of either third or fourth Lieutenant and normally implied a brand new Land Officer, I.E. Infantry, Cavalry or Artillery. Later on it was changed to mean any rank below Captain.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

When the British Navy went from Flintlocks to Cap locks , the sailors did not like the new fangled muskets . They moved about the ships in bare feet , not a problem with flints but those caps cut their feet and really hurt .

I think the Royal Marines got a kick out of that.

Gus

 

[TFoley]

I am beginning to wonder if I should trash the stock and build one from scratch using the lock, barrel, nose cap, pipes, wrist plate and trigger guard from the repro but add a proper butt plate. I'll have to think on it a bit. Modifying the existing stock may be too severe a compromise for me to accept. In the mean time, I'll work on the lock. dave

My woodwork teacher was always reminding us that while we can make a piece smaller, it's a heck of a job to make it bigger.

 

[TFoley]

Mr Person - re post #50 and your use of Black Walnut - 'Unfortunately, I have to use it for this stock for cost and supply reasons'. I'm surprised to read this comment. For a nigh-on custom musket that is undoubtedly going to cost a 'deal of money', to penny-pinch on a piece of wood for the stock seems very odd to me. 'Supply', I can understand, but 'cost'? Nossir.

 

[dave_person]

Hi TFoley,
This is actually one of my pro bono jobs. I try to build an accurate musket for a deserving reenactor every year at cost of parts or less depending on their circumstances. This is because many reenactors cannot afford the price of a historically accurate gun so they have Pedersolis, Mirokus, or India-made guns. I do my small part to change that and also in the process educate the owners and their colleagues about the details of their guns. The other reason is obtaining English walnut blanks long enough for muskets is difficult. It can take me months or even much longer to find a suitable piece.

dave

 

[fireman1]

Hi TFoley,
This is actually one of my pro bono jobs. I try to build an accurate musket for a deserving reenactor every year at cost of parts or less depending on their circumstances. This is because many reenactors cannot afford the price of a historically accurate gun so they have Pedersolis, Mirokus, or India-made guns. I do my small part to change that and also in the process educate the owners and their colleagues about the details of their guns. The other reason is obtaining English walnut blanks long enough for muskets is difficult. It can take me months to find a suitable piece.

dave

Dave,

You are a good man.

 

[Ragged Edge]

Dave, I can't tell you with words how much knowledge and pleasure I've gotten following along with your thread. I have few gunmaking skills, but a great appreciation for those who do, and have been lucky enough to rub shoulders with many. Best Regards! RE

 

[FlinterNick]

And you are historically correct in doing so!

Gus

I think the shield style thumb piece seen on brown Bess’s was commonly used on civilian guns too as a method of inscribing ownership. Early English laws in the colonies also required personal arms to be marked, I believe gunsmiths were almost obligated to include one.