TVM Southern Rifle/Tennessee Rifle

[Norseman]

I am interested in getting into FLINT rifles vice percussion-ie my LYMAN GP-(had it since the early 90's) and would really appreciate opinions on TVM (Tenn. Valley "Muzzleloading") Southern Rifle and the Tenn. Rifle. I am interested in .54 cal.
As a historical question, what would be the earliest dates of historical re-enactment of the representive styles of the two mentioned above? Also when did non-swamped barrels come into vogue?
TVM...thumbs up or down?

 

[Darryl]

I can't help you much but Matt Avance at TVM put together a super Tenn flinter in .45 for me last year. All iron, no patchbox or nose cap, but I did have a toe plate included and a non-swamped 42" barrel. I am told this is post Rev. and up to the Alamo and something that would have been with Andy Jackson at Chalmette. TVM muzzleloaders are outstanding products for reasonable prices. Both Matt and Toni are just wonderful to work with.

 

If you are reenacting in the tidewater area you need to go ahead and spring the extra $100 for the early VA, early Lancaster or flint fowler instead of the TN/southern rifles.

The early Va is good almost back to the F&I war, the fowler earlier than that and the Lancaster back to the Rev war, if you do not get too picky.

neither of the southern/TN guns are good for much earlier than the 1820s.

The swamped barrels of the 18th century were not as radically swamped as the barrels of today. Our modern swamps are very exagerated. We would consider many of the swamped barrels on origional pieces as nearly straight barrels and we put way too much emphisis on swamped barrels on reproductions. The old masters would probably have killed to be able to make perfectly straight barrels like we are capable of today!

:imo:

 

[CrackStock]

I really like the Tennessee and Southern mountain guns, but is TVM using the large Siler lock of these?

CS

 

[fatboy]

All of the rifles that I've seen of theres appear to have the L/Siler lock

 

[redwing]

I have one of the TVMs, sounds like yours right down to
the toe plate. Mine however is a .50 cal. flint. I like
the rifle, and it gets a lot of attention at the Rondys.
The Southern Mtn. is getting very popular here in the
Rockies.
It used to be that the Perc. Hawkins was the only rifle for
our Rondys. That has changed in the past few years. The
Southern Mtn. Rifle has really taken over.
So far as the large Siler, no big deal. I have seen
orginals out here with old musket locks. Many of the
orginal fur trade rifles are of this type. They were also
made in In.,Ohio, Mo. One of the nice orignals belongs to
a friend in Mt. it was made in Ohio. His fore fathers
came west with it in the 1830s.
Our family rifle is of this type, made in Shenedoa{sp}Co.
Va. headed to the Mtns in 1830s.

:redthumb:
redwing

 

[Donny]

I'll wager none of the guns you mentioned has a germanic Silar lock???? :: Nor should the S. mtn rifle. :shocking:

 

[750k2]

I'm waitin on a 40 Tenn. and Toni said that they usually put a small siler on the small bores.
After talkin to them a couple o times I have no doubt
I'll be happy with it.
:imo:

 

[SimonKenton]

750,

If at all possible switch to a Late Ketland from Chambers. They are quicker than a scalded jackrabbit and VERY period correct. My own TVM has a "Golden Age" lock and Dickert style barrel because mine is based on a gun that was cobbled together from available parts. Actual TN rifles, especially Bean rifles, from the 1812-1830 flint period should have the Ketland lock.

-Ray :m2c:

 

[750k2]

Already have a custom Baxter Bean bulit by Packdog
with the late ketland and a rice bbl. so this one is the one the kids get to learn on. Unless it shots to good then I'll just keep it and have to get them something
else.. NEVER give your kids guns that shoot to good!
You might get beat..
:hmm:

 

[redwing]

When you have been around arms long enough, you will
learn one thing and never forget. "Never say Never".


:redthumb:

redwing

 

[CrackStock]

While a lot of suppliers have fallen into the habit of using the Silers on these guns, I believe that it was not the common practice. I would request something else.

CS

 

[Bob J]

Roger Sells of Monterey, TN is using the Chambers late Ketland lock on the .54 southern mountain rifle he's building for me.

 

[tg]

I would go with Crackstock on this one, I don't know of any originals of this type with the Germanic lock from what I have read/heard from some very knowledgable sources, the days of the Siler "working" for all guns is gone with the historical information readily available in todays cyber world, many other things will feel the PC pressure now that the word of a builder/supplier is not the lone source of what was or wasn't.

 

[Norseman]

In reference to my original posting on the TVM (Muzzleloading) Southern Rifle: What is the difference between TVM (Muzzleloading) and TVM (Manufacturing)? Both are listed as separate web sites and both are in Corinth Mississippi.

Also what would be the "conservative" estimate conscerning the time period of use the Southern Rifle-flint made by TVM? Would the use of Brass furniture instead of iron affect is general period representation? Since the question of using a Siler lock came up...how about a L&R flintlock? Is one or the other more period correct, or better than the other?

 

[Rebel]

Tenn. Valley Muzzleloading is owned by The Avance's and Tenn. Valley Manufacturing is owned by Jack Garner

 

[CrackStock]

As I understand the history...

Once upon a time, Jack Garner owned a shop. Jack was thinking of moving into the components side of the business and one of his people, Matt Avance wanted to make guns across town. They came to some sort of arrangement and went their own ways -- each with a variation on the TVM name. As time went on Jack gradually moved back into producing a more guns while still making components. This places them into some degree of competition. (I believe that Jackie Brown was also one of his people and opened up a shop a few miles down the road.) No big deal in my book as I like all of these people.

As to the lock, I have a Siler on my Tennessee small bore caplock and it works well. I use this gun for shooting matches. I am looking at building another one in flint but it will not have a Siler Germanic lock. They were commonly used for reproductions, but there are other options now and I do not believe that it is the correct lock for this gun. I was giving you advice that I plan to take myself.

L&R lock is down the road from where I live now, I like Bill and I am a tad biased toward his products. I like his fowler locks and there are some very good L&R locks out there. On the other hand, I have been hearing good things about the Chambers Late Ketland. When I build my flint rifle, it will have that lock. I plan to make most of my own furniture for that rifle.

As to your time and location, Ghost was on the money. I purchased an early Lancaster kit from Matt and Toni Avance for exactly that reason. I also admire the early Virginia as well. You need to decide if you want the style of rifle or a particular period in history.

Good luck with whatever you get.

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[tg]

I would think that these guns could range from 1810 on thru the end of the ML period, this might be giving the benifit of the doubt to the early side, brass or iron would be proper for this time period..some local preferences may have used more of one than the other, most who have studied these guns feel that a round tailed non-Germanic lock would be the best choice for a gun of this type/period, I am more into earlier guns, there may be some others here with more info on the late flint period guns.

 

[Norseman]

Gents. I called Tennessee Valley "Muzzleloading" and talked to a very nice and helpfull lady. I asked her about the difference between TVM (Muzzleloading) and TVM (Manufacturing). TVM-muzzleloading makes rifles and TVM-manufacturing makes and distributes parts. Anyway... I am starting the process of getting the TVM Southern Rifle ordered and made for me.
Question: When did octagon barrels come into vogue replacing Swamped barrels?? Would the octagon barrel be correct for an early Southern rifle?
As for the Siler lock- An early rifle builder might just of happened to have a Germanic style lock sitting on the shelf or taken off another rifle and put it on a rifle built in the mountains of Virginia around 1809. I am sure there are so many other unknown variants of long rifles that are long forgotten laying in the ground or maybe even to be discovered in a very old house. I will check into the lock issue though. Joined the NMLRA today as well. :master:

 

[rich pierce]

Straight octagon is fine for most longrifles after 1810 or 1820. The advice being given you about round-tailed English locks is sound. yes, it's always possible that someone had an old Germanic-styled lock and put it on a Tennessee rifle. But there are hundreds of existing examples with late style, round tailed (or with the little tit on the end) English-styled locks. So- the choice is up to the individual, whether they want to use something that was used the vast majority of the time, or whether they want to explain it (there was this old Germanic lock laying around so the gunsmith used that one).

Sort of like if I built a brass-mounted J&S Hawken "mountain" rifle with an ash stock. Sure, it could have been done- they used brass on some of their squirrel guns- and there's plenty of white ash in Missouri, maybe more ash than hard maple. So I could explain it easily. Would it be "right"?