TVM Southern Rifle/Tennessee Rifle

[Packdog]

Norseman,

I agree, a straight barrel would be just fine. Even some of the barrels that are swamped have such a small amount of swamp you have to measure to see it.

You used the word "represenative" a couple of times.

I will not say a Southern gun could not have had a Siler/Germanic lock but it would not be "represenative" based on the surviving originals. Before you spend your hard earned $, you should also know a short tang is not represenative of this style either. I don't know what TVM uses?

Rich: So- the choice is up to the individual, whether they want to use something that was used the vast majority of the time, or whether they want to explain it

:agree: :hmm:
PD

 

[redwing]

What is next, you rifle must me hand rifled from soft
iron. It seems to me all these 4140 steel tubes would
not have been around in 18whenever.
How about the cast parts in the locks? Is that PC?
Who makes up all these rules any way? I don't think
anyone knows for sure what everyone did in the past.
I do know that most of the eastern rifles that made it
to the west were modified due to need. Old musket locks
short tangs, cut off brls. sights of all kinds. So if
you are Fur Trade or Plains about anything that shoots
will work.

redwing
:redthumb:

 

[Packdog]

I don't think
anyone knows for sure what everyone did in the past.

Your right. Do whatever you want.

PD

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You know Rich, that ash stocked, brass mounted Hawken might not be PC, but it sure would be pretty...especially if it was curly ash.

 

[rich pierce]

What is next, you rifle must me hand rifled from soft
iron. It seems to me all these 4140 steel tubes would
not have been around in 18whenever.
How about the cast parts in the locks? Is that PC?
Who makes up all these rules any way? I don't think
anyone knows for sure what everyone did in the past.
I do know that most of the eastern rifles that made it
to the west were modified due to need. Old musket locks
short tangs, cut off brls. sights of all kinds. So if
you are Fur Trade or Plains about anything that shoots
will work.

redwing
:redthumb:

The question wasn't about steel, or whether lock parts were forged or cast. His question, whether a straight or swamped barrel would be more appropriate for a particular style of gun, suggested that he was interested in having a gun that LOOKED LIKE originals at the macro level. The difference between a swamped barrel and a straight one is more subtle than many- not easy to see at 50 yards, maybe not at 25 for some of us old timers. So the guy seemed to want to know what looks correct for this type of gun, most of the time. Suggesting that the good advice he's been given is "PC gone wild" is a just about as far out as saying that they probably had inlines back then.

"You can't prove they didn't make them like this!" seems to be the response of many who insist their gun is "PC" while knowing full well that it's distinctly different from a wealth of existing examples.

I think folks who are interested in owning guns that could pass as originals at 20 yards, back in the day, deserve to have their questions answered in some way other than, "Who knows- anything goes!"

On the other hand, I never offer unsolicited advice, or initiate a conversation that suggests that someone's pride and joy is not a close replica of originals. That's being a PC-nazi in my book, UNLESS one's in charge of making sure folks adhere to established standards at a closed event.

If folks ask on a forum such as this, they might expect to get answers that validate their ideas, and some that don't.

 

[3 stinky dogs]

It does seem like if a trapper snapped his hammer or some how busted a lock or part that the gunsmith would tell him he cant fix it cause the parts dont belong on that gun.I have read that aiol of the time parts would be modified to fit.

 

[tg]

Rich it does seem that when someone asks a ? about the historical aspdects of guns there are always those who like to say it don't matter,but I think it must matter if someone asked the ?....and they are correct when they say
" we don't know what all they did" that is why we stick with that which we do know, when striving for the replica type gun.....pretty simple really...ya think?

 

[Donny]

Difference between the two companys, I think....I have bought several blanks, inletted for the barrel, from Jack Garner. Oct to round or swamped. Smoothbore barrels also..He used to do Dixie's stocks, may still do. So he is primarily a stock man, while Matt is mainly a kit business. But, I have bought other parts from Jack..or Matt..oh wait.. hummm, I can't remember..oh well. ::

 

[gam3835]

I bought a TVM Southern rifle in 2001. It is a flintlock (small Siler lock), .45 caliber, 42" barrel. It's a great rifle. I'm not a great shot but I am a fair one. I have put 8 out of 10 inside a 3" circle at 100 yards on two separate occasions with that TVM .45. And I'm 57 years old. Younger eyes might get those other two shot in. As far as historical accuracy, the Southern rifle won't wash in Colonial circles but it fits well with the early 19th Century...just my two cents.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

**SNIP**
Our family rifle is of this type, made in Shenedoa{sp}Co.
Va. headed to the Mtns in 1830s.
**SNIP**

Shenandoah.....It's up the road a piece from my new digs in Virgina.

 

[rich pierce]

Rich it does seem that when someone asks a ? about the historical aspdects of guns there are always those who like to say it don't matter,but I think it must matter if someone asked the ?....and they are correct when they say
" we don't know what all they did" that is why we stick with that which we do know, when striving for the replica type gun.....pretty simple really...ya think?

TG, you're just too logical. The next thing ya know, you'll be telling me that 2+2=4! Dad-burn it, you're trying to make us think straight!

Guys, I think we can agree on this- we'd all rather be shooting, or hunting, or building a rifle, or sharpening a hawk, or sitting around the fire with our cronies, or standing in the moonlight and listening to the breeze blow through the trees. We're all, to some degree or another, stuck somewhere we'd rather not be. And that can make a fella grumpy sometimes! Nothing that a week in the woods together wouldn't smooth over.

 

[Runner]

Lets go! Don't know about a full week, but I could use a couple of days right about now!

 

[CrackStock]

Norseman,

Did you see my post above?

You very likely spoke with Toni Avance. I like Toni a lot. She and Matt are good people. She truthfully outlined her original understanding to you. However, there has been some water under the bridge since then resulting in:

http://www.tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/catalog.php?category=finished

I would think that it is safe to say that Jack's shop is producing finished rifles. After looking at the price of the Poorboy kit at:

http://www.tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/catalog.php?category=tpbriflekit

I might call Jack to see if I can get one with another lock option...

CS

 

[AdirondakDD]

I just got the word from Toni that my Tenn is in the works, 45 cal flint. As far as PC I wasnt looking at that aspect it be engraved on the top of the barrel "2004". Be ready to wait more then a year.

 

[Bob J]

Rich it does seem that when someone asks a ? about the historical aspdects of guns there are always those who like to say it don't matter,but I think it must matter if someone asked the ?....and they are correct when they say
" we don't know what all they did" that is why we stick with that which we do know, when striving for the replica type gun.....pretty simple really...ya think?

Guys, I think we can agree on this- we'd all rather be shooting, or hunting, or building a rifle, or sharpening a hawk, or sitting around the fire with our cronies, or standing in the moonlight and listening to the breeze blow through the trees. We're all, to some degree or another, stuck somewhere we'd rather not be. And that can make a fella grumpy sometimes! Nothing that a week in the woods together wouldn't smooth over.

3 months and 1 week 'till muzzleloading season

 

[Slash]

Any rifle that we build has the option of using different parts such as the lock. The Siler is just what we use standard. We will gladly substitute parts on any of them.
We will be as period correct as a person wants, but remember some things cost more.
Slash

 

[oneeye]

Norseman,
http://www.tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/catalog.php?category=finished

I would think that it is safe to say that Jack's shop is producing finished rifles. After looking at the price of the Poorboy kit at:

http://www.tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/catalog.php?category=tpbriflekit

I might call Jack to see if I can get one with another lock option...

CS

I went to that link and it was dated August 2004. Not sure how accurate that listing is going to be.

Dan

 

[CrackStock]

"Slash"

I see by your email address that this is Toni from Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading. I am glad to "Hear" from you.

"The Siler is just what we use standard. We will gladly substitute parts on any of them."

I figured that you would accommodate the use of other locks.
I know that the Silers are commonly used by most replica builders as they are not high priced, they fit well in many guns, they are readily available and they are reliable. However, this has become a hot topic in many circles over the past few years. People are questioning the use of this lock in that style of gun now more than they did previously. I wanted to (and did) suggest that people ask before simply going with the Siler as a default. There are other locks that I think are more correct. As you say, other options may have a higher cost, but then I would pay that cost and recommend that others do so as well.

What do you recommend as being both correct and reliable for this particular style of gun? I do not mean a could-have-been scenario, but rather a lock that is most true to the actual existing guns as they were built and used.

If you have a good recommendation, then I would post this recommendation on my site so that people could see a more correct option while browsing rather than being left with the impression that there is only the Siler option.

By the way, I mentioned having a Siler on my Tennessee, but this was before I met you and before you owned a shop. I built this gun from a collection of parts long ago and do not want anyone to think that I am trying to lay this at your door.

I did get my Lancaster from you and all is correct on that gun except for the silver furniture which I like and wanted.
Funny, but I now see that you prefer that look also. Now I better understand what you wrote to me a while back.

Maybe I should call you about an Early Virginia now!

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[Norseman]

Would anyone who owns an original "Southern Mountain" Long Rifle (Non "Poor Boy"), be so kind as to post a picture of it with a close-up of the flint-lock as well, so we can compare it to the currently manufactured locks? This would be a great help and I am sure it would be interesting!
I have ordered my Rifle from TVM with a Siler lock in .50 cal. I find this forum veeeeery interesting as I am no green horn, nor am I an expert. I would like to be AS close to the originals as possible, (sans the hand forged barrel made by a hung over blacksmith in a donkey barn, with who knows what type of alloy), definitly not a Green Mountain though. Y'all agree? So how about some pictures...maybe we will all be surprised! Oh well...........I guess I'll go clean my 13 year old Lyman Great Plains Rifle now. Had it for 13 years (percussion-.54). Oh no, it doesn't have a long tang! LOL. Maybe...just maybe I wish it did! Maybe not?

 

[rich pierce]

You should go to this website:
http://www.gillespierifles.com/ and look under "photos" and continue to scroll through. These are North Carolina, iron mounted longrifles from the Gillespie family. The descendent has written a book and is making authentic parts available. Note that all the locks are of English styling (rounded pan bottom is a clue, no vertical filing behind the cock). Some preserve the little "tit" at the tail of the lock which is quite distinct from a Germanic lock which tapers evenly to a point. Many are rounded at the tail. Have fun- this is a great resource.