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single shot

36 Cal.
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Can you guys tell me how to check the twist rate a particular gun has. I have several used guns here and id like to check them so i will know what ammo to shoot. Any other discussion on types of rifling will be helpfull also. Thanks Bob
 
Run a tight patch down the bore. Measure how many inches the rod goes in until it makes a quarter turn. Multiply the number by 4 and you have twist rate.
 
Its a straight forward process. You run a cleaning rod down the barrel. Now, put a piece of tape, with two ends taped together like a flag off the post, so that the flag is aligned with your front sight.

I prefer using a bronze bore brush with a cleaning patch dampened with solvent for this task, but others use a double patch on a cleaning jag. You want to have a tight fitting wad in the rifling, as its the rate of turn the rifling grooves that you are trying to measure. Got it??

By using a bore brush and damp cleaning patch, the bristles will poke through the patch to grab the corners of the rifling. The patch will hold the lube against the bore and grooves to help in moving the brush OUT of the barrel.

Now, slowly, with finger pressure only turning the rod, pull the rod out of the barrel. Most barrels are not long enough to give a full rotation of the rifling. It is NOT hard to think of the front sight, and that tape sticking up there, like a face of a clock, with the front sight being 12 o'clock. If you stop pulling out the rod when the 'flag' is at either 9 or 3 o'clock, the rod will have rotated 1/4 of a complete turn. Now, to find out the actual full Rate of Twist for that barrel, multiply the distance from the muzzle to the flag when the rod is at that 3 or 9 o'clock position, and multiply the number you get times 4. ( ex. 1/4 turn = 12 inches. 12 x 4 = 48 inches. Your ROT= 1:48". ) Because it takes a bit of practice to learn how little you have to grab the rod to keep from sliding the brush or patches over the grooves, and getting the wrong measurement, do this exercise several times with each gun barrel. Even I do it at least 3 times with every barrel now, just to be sure of myself. I have done this hundreds of times, with both modern and MLer barrels.

A typical round ball gun barrel will have a ROT of 1:48, to 1:66. Conical barrels will be easily IDed because of the shallow grooved rifling, and their ROT will be from 1:20-1:36". Pistol barrels will have even faster ROTS, even if they are designed to shoot PRB. The idea is to spin the ball faster to stabilize it at lower velocities.

I walked my own brother through this process 2 years ago when he was looking at a new gun barrel, on the phone. He screwed up the measurement twice before he got it right. I knew because his math generated some very strange ROT numbers! When you are working with High power, center fire rifles, you can see ROT of 9 and 7 inches, but most barrels have even numbers for their ROT. That is the first clue that you have screwed up! When he got it right( He was using double patches, rather than my recommended bore brush, because he didn't know where he left his bore brush!)I had him repeat it three times, so he would better get the FEEL of how to turn that rod as he pulled it out of the barrel. Once he got that sensation down, he had no trouble doing another barrel correctly the first time. :thumbsup:
 
i've run into basically three types of rifling in ML rifles:

'standard' which will show you a sharp edge at both the top and bottom of the land. this is by far the most common, and is a good general purpose rifling for shooting patched round ball.

'radius groove' ... think of a smoothbore barrel, now, in you mind's eye, cut grooves into the surface of the bore... make these grooves round instead of square. a bit unusual, but it makes cleaning easier since there aren't little corners for the funk to hide.

'shallow groove' much like 'standard' but the grooves aren't as deep. designed for imparting spin to conical or minnie bullets, these barrels usually have a faster rate of twist than a barrel designed to shoot PRB.

hope this helped.

make good smkoe!
 
That works good for uniform twist but won't work for gain twist.
 
single shot said:
Can you guys tell me how to check the twist rate a particular gun has. I have several used guns here and id like to check them so i will know what ammo to shoot. Any other discussion on types of rifling will be helpfull also. Thanks Bob

You need a rod with a bearing type handle to get an accurate read.
Tight patch to the bottom, make a mark on the rod at the muzzle and pull it until you get a 1/2 or a full turn, mark the rod at the muzzle and measure.
Once you own the barrel the rifling type is not changable anyway.

Dan
 
I have never heard of a Gain Twist barrel that was not marked by the maker with the ROT for it, usually on the bottom flat of the barrel.

The Italian Carcano Rifle, the only military rifle adopted by any country that had a gain twist, back in 1891, began with a slow 1" 23(?) and ended with a 1:8.9" ROT. Its believed that when most of the older guns were re-barreled in 1936, the Gain Twist barrels were replaced with standard twist barrels.

Its not clear if Oswald's gun, used to kill President J.F.Kennedy in 1963, had Gain Twist or not. A request to answer that question in about 1992 was turned away by the curators at the Smithsonian Institute.

A friend bought one of the Carcano Rifles in Sept. 1963, from Kleins, and I do not recall seeing any markings on that barrel indicating a gain twist. It may have been a post 1936 barrel. The 6.5 Italian ammo was quite accurate.

There are only a few barrel makers making Gain Twist barrels today. Exhaustive testing indicates that Gain Twist does not produce a more accurate barrel, which is why the "system" was abandoned a hundred years ago. Of course, those who buy these barrels think differently. I am not aware of any National Shooting records held by guns with a Gain Twist, however.

Stick to the more common Straight rifling, and then make your choice on whether you want to shoot RB, or Conical, and then whether you like the idea of buying a barrel with round bottomed rifling. The later may not be more accurate, but its much easier to load, and to keep clean.
 
Pope made gain twist barrel and he was one of the best barrel makers of his time. I think that at one time Brockway made gain twist barrels but latter made uniform barrels. There were other old time barrel makers that used gain twist but went to uniform twist as it is easier and faster to make. Gain twist is harder to cut than uniform twist to get it right.

I have alot of barrels with gain twist for round balls and they shot just as good as an uniform twist barrel, even one that is a gain lose gain twist. It startes slow at the breech, speeds up in the middle and slows down at the muzzle. it still shoot pretty good but may not be a tack driver but it is good enough for hunting.
 
I never said Gain twist barrels didn't shoot well. You apparently misread my post. What I said is that exhaustive testing in government labs, and ranges, as well on civilian ranges has shown that Gain Twist does NOT produce better accuracy than uniform rifling does.

Back When Harry Pope was first making Gain Twist rifle barrels, they were still loading the conical bullet down the muzzle, in order to protect the all important base of the bullet. BY loading from the muzzle, the scoring of the rifling on the soft lead pushed any lead towards the OGIVE, not back to stick out behind the base of the bullet like a fin. Harry did some impressive shooting of these Muzzle loading guns with a gain twist, using the increased rate of pitch to slowly turn the bullet faster.

If you look up Harry's tooling for loading target rifles, you will find pictures of equipment that is still being used, and copies for use with the Slug Gun Shooters, and their big bench guns. The Slug gun shooters don't use Gain Twist in their long range guns, either. Many have tested this kind of rifling in the past, and are a great source of information about its performance. They may not have their notebooks full of notes on their Gain Twist experience with them At Friendship, but if you go to their homes, they can pull out their notes, and save you lots of trouble, and money showing you their records which convinced them that Gain Twist provided no better accuracy.

POPE feared that a fast ROT would strip lead from a bullet because of the Torque put on the lead bullet when its first pushed from its dead rest. We now know that this does NOT happen, although lead bullets do Obturate to fill the bore and grooves when fired. Harry"s concern was almost understandable because MLers were The target guns before the Civil War, with their deep grooved rifling. But after breechloaders came into prominence, after the Civil War, the rifling was much less deep- very shallow in comparison, and folks who had worked up target loads with MLers were suspicious of what might happen to a bullet fired in a shallow groove, fast twist barrel. Paper patching of bullets came into vogue to make up the difference between the diameters of cast bullets and bore diameters, as the tolerances of the existing machine equipment was in the order of Plus or minus .002-.005"! Even bullet swaging dies could not be cut to plus or minus .001" until late in the 19th century.

Once those dies became available, however, paper patched bullets began to slowly disappear from the firing lines. What everyone understand about accuracy and bullets is that you have to have a good seal at the base of a bullet, to get good accuracy. Any gas cutting, or blow-by, will destroy that accuracy.

Modern jacketed bullets, fired at much higher velocities, are much harder than bare lead bullets, and they show no deformation, other than the rifling lands and grooves, when fired. Tolerance on a modern rifle bullet is held to .0001"!, something not even dreamed about in the 19th century. With CNC equipment now being used to cut the barrels, tolerances on rifle barrels are now approaching that same degree of accuracy. Gain Twist for such bullets is unnecessary, and provides no better accuracy.
 
I read your reply but never thought much of the Caracno rifle. Never thought they shot that good. I think that there are alot better rifles made.

You can just have a 5 shot group in one hole. you can't do any better.
 
Marking the rod - I put a piece of tape on the rod at the muzzle when it's bottomed out. I wrap it around and stick the two ends together so that they form a flag that sticks out from the rod. The flag makes it very easy to count partial revolutions. Using another piece of tape on the rod at the muzzle when you get a full turn or half turn makes it easy to measure the distance the rod moved to get that partial revolution.
 
Gain twists have been tried for many years in everything from small caliber muzzleloaders to large artillery.

With a gain twist the rate of twist changes as one moves from the breech to the muzzle.
It usually starts out with a very slow twist at the breech, maybe 1:100 and increases to its maximum twist at the muzzle (like 1:40?).
The final rate of twist at the muzzle determines how fast the projectile is rotating so, if the rate of twist during the final inch or so before reaching the muzzle is a 1:40 the projectile will be spinning at the same speed as it would when fired in a barrel with a constant rate of twist of 1:40.

The idea was that rather than trying to accelerate the rotation of the ball or bullet to the maximum twist right from the get go where some slipping of the patch or bullet might happen it would make a more accurate gun if this potential slipping didn't happen.
Because it takes energy to increase the speed that the ball or bullet is rotating it was (is) thought that by starting the rotational speed slowly and adding to it as it moves down the bore it would be more gentle and less apt to slip or jump a groove.

Test results have been variable with no clear winner. Some think it is a wonderful thing and some folks think it doesn't do anything at all.
 
FWIW, one of my most accurate barrels, ever, is a gain twist. Don't know if it really matters but that sucker is something else!
 
You say 1 in 48 twist will shoot PRB ? Is this still true with T/C barrels?
I picked up a New Englander the other day and would like to only use PRB. I was thinking of getting a barrel made up from GMB with a slower twist. I just don't like conicals???
If I get a good tax return next year I'm planning on buying a custom made smoothbore flintlock.
well,keep your powder dry, see at ronnyvous.
 
The rate of twist in a TC barrel isn't the problem with shooting a roundball.

Many of the original guns had 1:48 twists and they were made specifically for shooting roundballs.

The problem, well, it isn't really a problem, but anyway, the TC barrels have rather shallow rifling grooves. These work very well with slugs but if one wants to shoot patched roundballs they have to use tight ball/patch commutations.

Choose a ball that is .005 or .010 smaller than the caliber. For instance a .50 caliber barrel will use a .490 or .495 diameter roundball.
This should be patched with a .015-.020 thick patch. The patch MUST be either pure cotton or linen. No material which contains any rayon, nylon, or poly anything will work because the temperatures are much too hot for them.

Because of the tight ball/patch needed you will need to use a short starter to get the patch/ball into the muzzle. Once started it will ram home to the powder charge without much force.
Just make sure it is seated on the powder.
 
(zonie said)the TC barrels have rather shallow rifling
I have a brand new 1/66 roundball barrel from t/c and even it has those damned shallow grooves, does anybody know why? i would think a rb barrel would have deeper grooves, are they too cheap to reset the equip. or is there a reason for it? :v
 
It cost much less to buy buttons to cut shallow rifling, than to spend both the added labor, and time, and buy "gang buttons"( cutters set up in tandem) to cut the deeper grooves.

When I visited McGowen Rifle Barrel Company at St. Anne, Illinois, and Harry gave me the nickle tour of his plant, he indicated that he does NOT make barrels for BP rifles, and told me this was the reason why. His barrels are prized for their accuracy for modern cartridge guns, but he didn't want to get involved in the BP Barrel business. T/C sells way more barrels for their pistols, and rifles, than they do their BP guns. The barrels they sell normally will shoot PRB as well as conicals. T/C was an early company to offer hunters the greater mass of a conical bullet, and made their own conicals well known through substantial ad campaign. I have my own doubts that anyone in top management at T/C had any real practical shooting experience with BP rifles.

After all, it took them years before they finally fixed the locks on their flintlocks. I suspect that occurred only because it cut the cost of all the warranty work they were doing on the older model guns- and not any real interest in making a well designed flintlock action. Seen any ads from T/C advertising their " Better" Flintlock, since it began to be made??? The company should be crowing to the moon over this success, but all I have seen are ads featuring their modern guns, and those unmentionable guns they also make.

I would not worry much about shallow grooves in that 1/66 ROT barrel. It will shoot RB well, provided you have a good tight ball/patch combination, and use a good lube. I had a .45 cal. Spanish made rifle years ago, that had scratches- I am not exaggerating-- for rifling. I fired many good targets with it, off the bench, and finally Off- hand, after I got the correct ball/patch combination.
 
lonehunter said:
(zonie said)the TC barrels have rather shallow rifling
I have a brand new 1/66 roundball barrel from t/c and even it has those damned shallow grooves, does anybody know why? i would think a rb barrel would have deeper grooves, are they too cheap to reset the equip. or is there a reason for it? :v

You are the second person in the last few weeks, on this Forum, to say that they have a new 1 in 66 RB barrrel with shallow rifling. There is also a RB barrel on ebay that I asked the seller about the depth of the rifling and he said that it had the same depth rifling as his other TC barrels.

I have a 1 in 66 RB barrel that I ordered about six months ago. I requested no QLA (no counter bored muzzle)I don't remember if I asked anything about the depth of rifling. My barrel has noticably deeper rifling than my standart 1 in 48 barrel and the muzzle is not counterbored.

You need to call TC and ask them why you didn't get the deep rifling.

Robert
 
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