Ultimate effect of how hard a charge/projectile is rammed?

[longcruise]

The amount of resistance offered by the patch and ball is going to vary with every gun.
It's all irrelevant IMO.....consistency is what matters and every gun has its own sweet spot.

Even if we eliminate all of the variables the largest accuracy factor still remains......the shooter.
Working on the things that will yield the greatest improvements in accuracy is the quickest way to get into the 10 ring.

That's practice, practice, practice, and consistency

I guess you have a point, but I count four different tangents that you have gone off on.

Here is the OP's original question.

What is the ultimate effect of how hard a black powder charge/projectile is rammed? If the charge is more tightly compressed, will it cause greater pressure once ignited? Is the difference that great?

He didn't ask about accuracy, consistency, variations from one gun to the next or how to get into the ten ring. Those things may well be of vital interest to him, but it's not what he asked about.

 

[BrownBear]

fouling will decrease the "chamber" volume and raise the overall height of the load.

By how much?

 

[jamesthomas]

What I do is, when I'm first taking a rifle, say my .40 cal. I shoot around 3 or 4 5 shot groups using a different (or try to) pressure for each five shot group. When I get a nice group say 5 shots with 1 1/2 at 35 yards with 35 grains of powder I mark my ram rod an load to the mark every time. The last time I went shooting which was back in Feb. I put 5 shots within 1 1/2 to 3/4 inches at 35 yards. It will my squirrel load come this fall. I still need to try a deer load for it. So far 60 to 65 grains looks promising. I need to re-up my membership at the club first and then try to get out and do some shooting, still recovering from the stuff I have been through and need to gain 5 to 10 Lbs. before I get out shooting, maybe by the end of April.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Several years back I made so "rod rams" that had a spring and a plunger in them that fit over the end of the ramrod And when you reached a preset pressure the plunger would top out against your hand to assure a constant force. Much like putting your rifle on a bathroom scale, which some target shooters used to do. I ran the loads through a chrony and found that they did help with more consistent velocities. But the improvement was minimumal. :idunno:

 

[coloradoclyde]

The amount of resistance offered by the patch and ball is going to vary with every gun.
It's all irrelevant IMO.....consistency is what matters and every gun has its own sweet spot.

Even if we eliminate all of the variables the largest accuracy factor still remains......the shooter.
Working on the things that will yield the greatest improvements in accuracy is the quickest way to get into the 10 ring.

That's practice, practice, practice, and consistency

I guess you have a point, but I count four different tangents that you have gone off on.

Here is the OP's original question.

What is the ultimate effect of how hard a black powder charge/projectile is rammed? If the charge is more tightly compressed, will it cause greater pressure once ignited? Is the difference that great?

He didn't ask about accuracy, consistency, variations from one gun to the next or how to get into the ten ring. Those things may well be of vital interest to him, but it's not what he asked about.

The OP asked 4 questions.

He didn't ask about accuracy, consistency, variations from one gun to the next or how to get into the ten ring. Those things may well be of vital interest to him, but it's not what he asked about

:hmm: I wonder what he meant by this then?

I know serious target shooters strive for equal tamping from shot to shot for the sake of consistency. Is this the reason why?

To quote you...

I guess you have a point,

If your not arguing with the validity of my answers.... then how is your response relevant?

 

[Billnpatti]

I might suggest anothber thing for future studies. Perhaps more than one target should be used for each compression. Five shots on each of three targets for each level of conpression and then average them to arrive at a figure that would better represent the effects of varying amounts of compression. I know it is a fair amount of shooting but I think it will produce a better measurement of the effects of varying amounts of compresion. Just a thought

 

[Billnpatti]

Whatever amount of pressure you use, you should be consistant. Consistancy in all things is the key to accuracy with a muzzleloading rifle.

:hmm: Let me clarify what I just said, there are many keys to accuracy and consistancy is but one of the keys....a big one for sure but only one of the keys.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I might suggest another thing for future studies. Perhaps more than one target should be used for each compression. Five shots on each of three targets for each level of compression and then average them to arrive at a figure that would better represent the effects of varying amounts of compression. I know it is a fair amount of shooting but I think it will produce a better measurement of the effects of varying amounts of compression. Just a thought

Bill,
Steve and I have discussed a repeat of the test hoping to have a tighter control over variables. Your suggestion is valid. Besides that we thought of using a 50 target distance, using Redfield Olympic sights, weighing balls and charges. (After watching Steve handle his powder measure, that last step may not make much difference. Steve still holds a national record using the powder-measuring method he used here.) We'd use the same rifle because it is easily convertible from percussion to flint.

I'd add that we have a list of tests we want to do, and stuff always seem to get in our way. High on our list is a test to see if we can measure a difference in ignition time by varying the length of web in flint vent liners.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Al Bently]

Whatever amount of pressure you use, you should be consistant. Consistancy in all things is the key to accuracy with a muzzleloading rifle.

:hmm: Let me clarify what I just said, there are many keys to accuracy and consistancy is but one of the keys....a big one for sure but only one of the keys.

No, no. You said: "He (Mr. Dutch Schoultz) ran a series of tests using it to measure the different amounts of force he put on the ball when he seated it and, according to him, different amounts of force with which he seated the ball really made no difference in the accuracy."

So either ramming force consistency from shot to shot DOES make a difference and the quote above is incorrect or it doesn't make a difference. Can't have it both ways.

 

[longcruise]

Wasn't arguing validity of your statements, but the relevance to the question.

Allowing that you may have a point was just me being polite. After all, you did have one out of five.....sort of. There is consistency in loading technique and the question of whether powder compression provides some sort of consistency. It's apparent that you have not done any testing of the results of compressing powder.

 

[Al Bently]

I think those KaDOOTY slide-hammer (or drop-hammer) ramrods were designed largely to provide a way to provide a way of constant ramming, shot to shot.

 

[azmntman]

op:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Allowing that you may have a point was just me being polite.

:rotf: Ok Mike, I :surrender: It's obvious you just want to argue.
Maybe someone else will accommodate you. :td:

 

[longcruise]

You are a bad man! :haha:

Kadoody rod. Never heard that term before. When I did my velocity tests I used a heavy rubber hammer to pound on the range rod. There was not all that much compression achieved. There were ten shots fired alternately with thorough wiping between shots. Velocity increases were moderate and averaged about 25 fps. SD dropped from in the twenties to single digits. Was over 20 years ago and I'm going on memory.

A good indicator of pressure increases with powder compression is seen in BPCR loads. When bullets are seated on the powder without compression, there is often blow by back around the case. Especially with lighter bullets. OTOH, when powder is compressed, there is enough pressure to seal the case to the chamber walls and prevent blow by. The British loaded their Bp rounds for the Martini rifles without enough compression with the result being dirty chambers and jammed actions.

 

[longcruise]

Too late! You already did! :haha: :haha: :haha:

 

[Zonie]

You've never heard of a KaDooty ramrod before?

Boy! :shocked2: I thought everyone who had been in this game for a number of years knew all about the KaDooty.

It was a special brass ramrod with a slide hammer built into it.

After lightly ramming the patched ball, the slide hammer was lifted and allowed to fall, producing a consistent, repeatable amount of inertia.

This was thought to produce better groups. At least that's what the ad's said.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well sense it's been forgotten, we need to market it again to the folks shooting the unmentionable rifles!

LD

 

[roundball]

Too late! You already did! :haha: :haha: :haha:

:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

fouling will decrease the "chamber" volume and raise the overall height of the load.

By how much?

:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

He didn't ask about accuracy, consistency, variations from one gun to the next or how to get into the ten ring. Those things may well be of vital interest to him, but it's not what he asked about.

:thumbsup: