Unburnt Powder and Other Load Questions

[jlutz]

Hi All. Disclaimer: new flintlock shooter here. I’m getting to know a .45 caliber flintlock I picked up second hand. Made a number of years ago from a kit, has Dixie Gun Works Lancaster barrel with shallow rifling.

The bore was quite tight for a .440 ball, it quickly became a challenge to load with a .010 patch, so I switched to .050, both sizes were pre-lubed. 65gr of Schuetzen FFF produced fair accuracy for a novice, but I found I needed to clean barrel frequently between shots and if I tip the barrel after running a brush through, visible powder granules came out. I took that to be unburnt powder. Does that seem likely? And if so, what might be the cause? I wondered if the thin patch might be destroyed in the burn (I haven’t recovered any) which didn't create a tight enough seal and the ball was down range before all the powder burned. I also think the powder probably burns pretty instantaneously and that theory might be poppycock.

Thoughts from the more learned? Next I’m going to try some .433 balls with a thicker patch, but would be interested to hear thoughts on the above.

Thanks!
Jake

 

[EC121]

The particles are burnt powder. Charcoal is an ingredient in blackpowder. The fouling will be black. Be careful using a brush in the barrel. Make sure the brush wire is looped through the threaded base and that the base is something onther than aluminum. Most brushes are made to be pushed not pulled. When you twist the brush to free it up, it will come off the base. If I had to use a brush, I would use an undersized brush with a patch on it or use a wet patch and jag with no brush.
Not a thing wrong with shallow rifling. About .004-.008" is all that is needed to spin a ball. Anything over that is marketing by the manufacturers.

 

[ord sgt]

You should recover some of the patches and examine them. They will tell if you are getting blow-by or if the patch is being damaged by the loading. Is the patch/ball combination on target with any consistent accuracy?

 

[Grenadier1758]

The 0.433" diameter ball is a likely choice. All too often these barrels are a little tight and original specifications were guidelines, not requirements. A 0.015" thick cotton patch would then be appropriate.

The black chunks that fall out after brushing are fouling burned with your patch lubricant. The powder will be burned by the time the ball leaves the barrel.

If you are not finding patches after firing, they are likely to be burned up during ignition. Black Powder burns fast, but not quite instantly. What lubricant are you using on your patches? When you clean your rifle, are the cleaning patches cut indicating sharp lands or a sharp crown.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Black powder always leaves a lot of material behind after it burns. If you gather this stuff up it will not burn if you put a match to it. Now to the important part, your smaller ball and thicker patch may help but the first thing I’d do is not use a prelude during patch. Simple spit on a good patch material like pillow ticking will keep you shooting for hours.

 

[ohio ramrod]

A simple test to see if you are getting "blow by" with the thinner patches is to wad up a couple of patches to serve as an "over powder" wad. The wadded up patches will protect your shooting patch from the burning powder. Many people myself included use an over powder wad.

 

[jlutz]

The particles are burnt powder. Charcoal is an ingredient in blackpowder. The fouling will be black. Be careful using a brush in the barrel. Make sure the brush wire is looped through the threaded base and that the base is something onther than aluminum. Most brushes are made to be pushed not pulled. When you twist the brush to free it up, it will come off the base. If I had to use a brush, I would use an undersized brush with a patch on it or use a wet patch and jag with no brush.
Not a thing wrong with shallow rifling. About .004-.008" is all that is needed to spin a ball. Anything over that is marketing by the manufacturers.

Thank you, that’s good advice! I have nearly lost a brush before. And that makes re: the charcoal!

 

[jlutz]

You should recover some of the patches and examine them. They will tell if you are getting blow-by or if the patch is being damaged by the loading. Is the patch/ball combination on target with any consistent accuracy?

I haven’t found any patches to inspect yet, which is one thing that made me wonder if they were surviving. I would say accuracy is fairly consistent, but I’ve just had one solid range day with it and being new to flintlocks, it’s safe to say some inconsistency can be blamed on me and not the rifle either way!

 

[jlutz]

The 0.433" diameter ball is a likely choice. All too often these barrels are a little tight and original specifications were guidelines, not requirements. A 0.015" thick cotton patch would then be appropriate.

The black chunks that fall out after brushing are fouling burned with your patch lubricant. The powder will be burned by the time the ball leaves the barrel.

If you are not finding patches after firing, they are likely to be burned up during ignition. Black Powder burns fast, but not quite instantly. What lubricant are you using on your patches? When you clean your rifle, are the cleaning patches cut indicating sharp lands or a sharp crown.

The patches I’ve been using came pre-lubed. I think with Bore Butter or something like it. I do sometimes get a small cut in the patch when cleaning, in the area near the bottom corner of the jag as its pointed down in the barrel. Does that point to a sharp crown?

 

[jlutz]

A simple test to see if you are getting "blow by" with the thinner patches is to wad up a couple of patches to serve as an "over powder" wad. The wadded up patches will protect your shooting patch from the burning powder. Many people myself included use an over powder wad.

Thank you, I hadn’t thought of trying an over powder card in a rifle, but that makes sense!

 

[Grenadier1758]

The patches I’ve been using came pre-lubed. I think with Bore Butter or something like it. I do sometimes get a small cut in the patch when cleaning, in the area near the bottom corner of the jag as its pointed down in the barrel. Does that point to a sharp crown?

Pre-lubed patches have often been problems. One of the concerns is how long have the pre-lubed patches been on the shelf? The lubrication will break down the cotton fiber and the patches can't hold up under the stresses of ignition. Much better to get un-lubricated patches and apply lubrication at loading. I prefer to cut my own patches from 100% cotton fabric and lubricate just before loading. I also cut my patches at the muzzle, but you can cut square patches from a strip of patch material and still get good accuracy. I suspect that your patches have deteriorated from being lubricated for a long time and shredding on firing.

You didn't say if the shots were fired from a rest, but use of a rest will reduce some the new to shooting flint lock rifles movement that can adversely effect target accuracy.

I am a big fan of taking measurements and using that information to make decisions. Perfectly acceptable and accurate digital calipers can be bought (from Harbor Freight or Midway USA) for about $20 and they can be used to measure bore diameter. I measure the land to land bore diameter and the groove to groove bore diameter. As a starting point, I use a ball the is 0.010" less in diameter than the land to land diameter. I use a patch material that is slightly greater than the groove depth +0.005" thick to compress the patch material and impress into the round ball to get the ball to spin. This will be a fairly tight load that may benefit from the use of a short starter.

 

[hanshi]

IMHO the only unburned powder is what's left in the can. Thicker patches may help as well. Tight prb combinations are usually more accurate and generally leave the bore "cleaner".

 

[oldwood]

Jlutz............With a shallow groove rifling , a tighter patch ball combination can be expected. Since I don't have an old Dixie Catalog to look up the specs on the kit gun barrel you have , it would be good for you to get a cheap micrometer or find someone to measure the bore and the balls and patches you are using. Would be good to check the twist of the rifling. You can do that with a ramrod by marking and measuring how much the rod turns from the breach until the end of the rod comes to the muzzle. Also , 65 Gr. FFFg could be ok if the twist is 1 turn in 70 in. , but most .45's I've shot , 1 turn in 56" with .012 deep rifling shoot best with 40 gr. for an accurate light charge , and 60 gr.FFFG for a 25 to 200 yd. target . Also , a thin liquid lube worked best with all patching. If grease is used , lay the patch on a hard surface and squeeze all excess grease off. That should cut down on the amount of fouling. As most folks say , never use old pre-lubed patches. I've been fooled by that as well. Hope this dissertation helps. ..........oldwood

 

[kansas_volunteer]

I've found the only sure way to clean a barrel between shots is to turn the rifle muzzel down and slide it down over a brush on a rod. A bunch of crud will fall out at your feet as the rod and brush are removed, much as OP describes. This method will almost guarantee a clean bore between shots. It works no matter the powder charge used. A patch on a jag isn't as effective. Of course this makes others on the range nervous, and is probably best done when shooting alone. I've often wondered about the composition of the crud left in the barrels after shots. What is its composition? Could it just be a form of charcoal?

 

[rafterob]

I think previous comments on a .433 ball are spot on. It was fairly common back in the 60's-70's for some European import barrels sold as .45 to actually be .44. Just a function of common metric standards vs. American standard measurements.
You should not be brushing in between shots, the brush is for final cleaning. A damp patch followed by a dry patch should be used to reduce fouling during the shooting session.

 

[user 36911]

If you're going to use a brush. Use this one.

https://www.octobercountry.com/msm-bore-brushes/

 

[Grenadier1758]

32 cal brush might be good for the chambered breech, but a 40 caliber might be a better choice for the bore. Loose enough that it won't get stuck and large enough to loosen crusty fouling and the heavy wire is properly looped to prevent pulling the brush out of the base.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Suggestions regarding ball and patch were good ones. I would agree with trying the .433" balls.

As noted, brushes are intended to be pushed all the way through, which is impossible with a muzzleloader unless you remove the breechplug. In my opinion, your best bet may be to get brushes with nylon bristles. The cleaning action is not as aggressive as with a bronze brush, but the nylon bristles reverse direction much easier and may be less likely to pull off in your bore. Or, you could use a slightly undersized brush, as @Grenadier1758 wisely suggested.

I agree with @kansas_volunteer , also. If you are permitted to do so at your range, you can put your rifle over your shoulder, with the muzzle down and forward, and "dry brush" between relays. A lot of fouling will simply fall out as you pull the rod and brush. Some N-SSA shooters I used to know did this routinely. Again, a nylon bristle brush will do the job with less drama than a tight-fitting bronze brush.

Good luck!

Notchy Bob

 

[user 36911]

32 cal brush might be good for the chambered breech, but a 40 caliber might be a better choice for the bore. Loose enough that it won't get stuck and large enough to loosen crusty fouling and the heavy wire is properly looped to prevent pulling the brush out of the base.

The brush I posted won't get stuck when using a bore size brush.

 

[Jim Wag]

TC makes, I believe, a brass
Bore brush
With bristles around it's
Tip
It may be
Helpful for getting crud out

Jim in La Luz