Underhammer hangfire problem

[mci5b]

I just picked up an underhammer that used to belong to my dad. It seems to have a lot of hangfires compared to the sidelock that I used to shoot. I was having some problems with a 75 grains of RS pyrodex. Now, I am trying to work up a lighter load for small game. So, I am using anywhere from 35 - 45 grains of pyrodex P. BTW this is a .45 caliber underhammer. Even if I pick the nipple everytime, it does not seem to help. I belive the rifle has the nipple in it that came from the factory. It seems that when I tap the ramrod with a hammer to further seat the ball, the gun will fire most of the time. I am using patches lubed with hog lard. The patches are pretty greasy; could they be to greasy?

However, I was still getting some hangfires with 75 grains of RS and using bore butter on the patches.

This problem is very frustrating, and I hope that I have given you guys enough information, so that someone can help me figure out the problem.

 

[musketman]

Could be a few things...

1. Remove the nipple and clean it out well, also look down in the breech and pick out any fouling left in there...

2. When cleaning, remove the nipple and flush out the breech well...

3. Have you tried it with real black powder?

4. If you must use pyrodex powder, try a hotter percussion cap, pyrodex has a higher ignition point than black powder...

5. Do you clean the bore between shots? You could be pushing fouling down on top of the nipple/breach area during the cleaning process...

6. you can drill out the nipple to a slightly larger hole (not too large, effects are irreversible)

7. Does the hammer hit the cap with the same force each time? (a weak trigger-guard spring could cause problems as well)

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Pyrodex can be difficult to light off--even in a percussion arm. Unless the gun is sitting for long periods after loading, it is unlikely that your lube is the problem.
A new nipple couldn't hurt. You don't say how old the Pyrodex is, but it can break down after a while. Try a good cleaning and then, if that doesn't do it, a new nipple. If the caps are old, you might try a new batch, but they seem to hold up okay over the years.

 

[mci5b]

Powder is new stock and from two different sources. The caps are new (subject to being stored by the place that I got them from.) I have not cleaned the barrel between shots. I have tried both picking the nipple and not picking the nipple with no real difference in performance. I can not get blackpowder locally since the ATF has stepped onto the scene.

 

[silverfox]

Okie I just got my underhammer out to check it. Its a numrick arms barreled Hopkin & Allen. I pulled the nipple and it is threaded into the breach by that I mean 1/4" hole the only thing between the powder and the nipple is the hole in the nipple. I can see rifling through hole the nipple fits in. What make is your underhammer? Pull the nipple and look in the hole to see if it is clear into the breach. Change nipples. If all is clear and the cap fires every time then I would change powder. There just isn't much to cause misfires with the direct line to the charge as the bottom of my nipple is touching the powder charge. I have had to shorten a new nipple inorder for the hammernose to clear the nipple and get a square strike on the cap but that has been the only problem I have had with the underhammer. Second thought: to heavy a load has blown the hammer back to halfcock. If you are new to underhammers keep you arm out from under the barrel they seem to blow debris straight down but not as bad as a flint does to the side.
Merry Christmas Fox

 

[mci5b]

It is a numrick arms so I am told. However, the nipple is threaded directly into the barrel, so in theory the powder should be right there. Caps seem to be getting hit square.

Is there a powder that is better burning than Pyrodex? I can not get blackpowder locally.

 

You've never mentioned the "brand" of caps yore use'n,.... I'd reccomend RWS's or CCI "MAGNUM" caps for all Pyrodex powder.

YMHS
rollingb

P.S.,.... I jest re-read yore original post, and I noticed thet when you "tap the ramrod with a hammer" yore rifle fires. Unlike real blackpowder, Pyrodex does need to be somewhat "compressed" before it will fire reliably so thet might be yore problem.

I personaly would find a better way of "compress'n" Pyrodex then with a hammer tho :haha: :haha:,.... maybe jest "tap'n" yore ramrod down on the ball several times will do tha job. ::

 

[mci5b]

went back out to do some more shooting. This time I settled the powder by allowing the ramrod to fall on the powder prior to putting a ball in. I had less hangfires, but I still get em occasionally.

I also took the nipple out, but I did not notice anything about it that would cause this problem.

The .440 balls with the .015 patches go in real hard, so that is why I was using the hammer technique. I wasn't pounding it just a tap.

Oh well maybe this underhammer thing isn't all it is cracked up to be.

 

I'd suggest go'n to a thinner patch, it'd make load'n easier and you'd git more compression on the powder charge.

What brand caps you use'n??

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Ohio Joe]

I'd suggest go'n to a thinner patch, it'd make load'n easier and you'd git more compression on the powder charge.

What brand caps you use'n??

YMHS
rollingb

Good idea on the patch. You could also try .437 or .433 roundballs to help with easier loading.

As "rollingb" is asking, what kind of caps are you using? You may just need hotter caps?

 

[Zonie]

If you could see directly into the rifles bore when the nipple was removed, it sounds like the hole thru the nipple is too small.
As others suggested, you could try using #11 Magnum caps or RWS caps. Both are more powerful than a standard #11 cap.

The restricting hole thru the nipple (where the inside gets smaller) should be about 1/32 of an inch in diameter. If it is much smaller than that, it won't permit enough of the caps flame to get thru into the powder.

I would suggest drilling the nipple out, but finding drill bits that small can be a challenge. These tiny drills are also very easy to break so drilling the hole freehand can be a problem.

I dug thru my old Dixie catalogs and found that the Hopkins and Allen rifles used a bastard thread size for their nipples.
Most modern guns use either a 6mm x .7 metric thread or a .250-28 thread.
The Hopkins and Allen used a .245-32 thread according to page 222 1980 Dixie Gunworks Catalog.
While Dixie offered nipples for these guns back then, their new catalog doesn't mention them.
Dixie does sometimes have old parts on hand that they don't list any more so you might try calling them or E mailing them at [email protected] and telling them what you need.


I would not recommend retapping the hole by running a .250-28 tap into the barrels nipple hole. The difference in the thread pitch (28 threads per inch vs 32 threads per inch) will destroy most of the holes threads.

While talking to Dixie, if they don't have the .245-32 thread nipple, ask them if they have a .250-32 threaded nipple. They also showed that size was available back in the 1980s.
If you can get a .250-32 nipple, buy a .250-32 tap and rethread the hole to that size.
Good luck.

 

[mci5b]

I am using Remington #11 caps. Clearance item from local Wal-mart. Maybe they are the problem. As far as the nipple hole size, a normal straight pin barely goes through the hole. I do not know what size that is.

I used a thinner patching material, and I had less hangfires. I am now thinking the hole in the nipple is too small, or the caps are too old / underpowered.

Has anyone tried tip cleaners for oxy/actelyn torches to drill a bigger hole in the nipple?

TOW says they have nipples for the underhammers.

Thanks again for the help.

 

I had a "sneeky suspicion" thet you might be use'n either the Italian or Remington caps, I don't like either brand.

I think if you try CCI "Magnum" caps, you'll git much better ignition for the Pyrodex powder.

If TOTW stocks nipples fer yore unnerhammer, it might be'a good idea to buy one 'cause it never hurts to have an extra.

Good luck!!
YMHS
rollingb

 

[musketman]

Now, I am trying to work up a lighter load for small game. So, I am using anywhere from 35 - 45 grains of pyrodex P.

Let's look at this at a different viewpoint...

Here's a thought, if the charge is too low, the ball will be seated further down the bore, right?

Could the charge be too light, low enough to place the patched roundball over the flash hole of the nipple or partially block it?

Yes, if the underhammer doesn't have a patient breech...

Does the gun misfire with larger loads?

 

[mci5b]

Yes it does misfire with 75 grains of ffg. I think that the ball and patch combo may be too tight. Therefore, I am not getting the powder to compress enough. Plus the caps may not have enough powder. However, I can not find CCI caps nor can I find Blackpowder locally. So, for now, I will continue to experiment with this rifle.

 

RWS caps (Dynamite Noble) are jest as good as the CCI's, if yore store stocks'em!! (and, I agree with the compress'n)

YMHS
rollingb

 

[musketman]

I think that the ball and patch combo may be too tight. Therefore, I am not getting the powder to compress enough.

Powder does not have to be compressed to work, the thing you mainly want is for the ball and powder to have no air space between them, but it will shoot without packing the ball on the charge...

When cleaning your barrel, does the patch get real tight and drag where the bullet/ball would be in the bore?

I suspect a fouling ring at this point for the loading problems, if the patch/ball combo is too tight, it will be too tight from the start, at the muzzle...

A light weight shooting patch can be tried using old T-shirt material...

 

Powder does not have to be compressed to work, the thing you mainly want is for the ball and powder to have no air space between them, but it will shoot without packing the ball on the charge...

Musketman,.... Pyrodex actually DOES need to be compressed somewhat in order to "fire"!!

A simple demostration of this is:......... try'n shot a blank load of Pyrodex without a patch or ball.

Real blackpowder will "fire",.... Pyrodex will not.

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Rat]

I would say BINGO the hole in your nipple is too small for Pyrodex. With light loads there should be no concern about opening it up quite a bit.

Rat

 

[mci5b]

The patch and ball combo that I was shooting is too tight from the muzzle. Today, I hope to have time to shoot a lighter weight patch. I think the hole in the nipple is on the small side because a strait pin barely goes through the hole. In fact, I have a heavier T-pin that I use for model airplanes that will not pass through the nipple hole. This is a Numrich Arms probly made way before Pyrodex came on the market. I suspect the nipple hole size reflects an era of more explosive powder.