Underhammer Question

[dcriner]

Here is a view of a modern reproduction rifle with an underhammer: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/492/1/AAL-869

Wouldn't there be more of a tendency for the cap to fall off? Also, is it awkward to invert the rifle to recap, or is it something you would get used to?

 

[M. De Land]

Mine is my main target rifle now and one gets used to turning it sideways to cap.
I didn't care to shoot it much until after making the flash diverter but now I can shoot in a sleeveless shirt if I want to.

A properly fitting cap will stay put very well with no problem.

MD

 

[dcriner]

Thanks, very interesting info. I hadn't thought about the fire from the cap burning your forearm. Did it also burn your trigger finger?

How did you come by that underhammer rifle in the pix?

 

[Rifleman1776]

A properly fit cap is a friction fit and will not fall off. The H&A undies I had did not fry the arm. Other styles might.
Cautionary note: the H&A rifles use a different nipple than most rifles. Do get the right one or you can end up with a nipple embedded in your arm. I can't bring to mind the exact spec for the right nipple, but TOW knows what you need and will send the right one if you order from them.

 

[asbrown]

Rifleman, I'm not trying to be argumentative but I need a clarification. Physics dictates that the explosive force follows the path of least resistance. This is the reason a ball goes down the barrel of a flintlock instead of all the blast coming out the open vent. How is it possible for a nipple to fly out of an underhammer instead of the bullet. Even a slightly worn or loose nipple would present resistance to escaping gas, plus the gas would need to push back the hammer, and I don't know your gun but my spring is very strong. Assuming all this has happened I seriously doubt there would be remaining force to embed the nipple in my arm. Does anyone on this forum actually know someone this happened to? I'd like to here the story directly from the injured party, just to insure I don't make the same boneheaded mistake with my underhammer. :idunno:

 

[asbrown]

You can also fix the cap spray problem by deepening the hammer cup a little.

 

[Billnpatti]

M.D. is a fine machinest and has made a really nice flash diverter. Unfortunately, these diverters are not on the market and unless you can make one, you will just have to learn how to deal with the cap spray. I have tried a regular flash diverter (cup) and that was a no go because I could not get the cap onto the nipple with the cup in place. I love my underhammer so I came up with a solution. I made an arm sleeve of canvas that protects my arm from the spray. It works grea. It is just a canvas tube with elastic at the upper end to keep it in place. It's extremely easy to make. I have also tried changing how I hold my underhammer. It is a very light weight gun (H&A Buggy Rifle) so I can, if I wish, use a grip just as if I was shooting a handgun. My right hand grips the gun in the usual fashion and my left hand goes directly over my right hand. Sounds awkward but with my light weight rifle that position is really quite comfortable and quite stable and my arm is no longer in the way of any cap spray.

As for the cap staying in place, that is not a problem if you use the correct nipple for the cap you are using. Usually, you will be shooting #11 caps so if your nipple is a #11 nipple, there will be no problem with the cap falling off. Putting the cap on is not a problem, as M.D. said, just turn your rifle on its side and it is quite easy to put your cap on. I use my finger to press that cap on as tight as it will go after putting it on the nipple. Properly applied, it will stay in place anyway but giving it that little press with my finger is just sort of a "belt and suspenders" thing with me.

If you want an underhammer, don't let the cap spray problem prevent you from buying it. There are many solutions to the problem. If you are a machinest like M.D., you can make a good flash diverter like his. It's a dandy. If not, you can look for someone to make one for you or just make yourself an arm sleeve like I did. I wouldn't part with my little .45 cal. H&A Buggy Rifle.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Rifleman, I'm not trying to be argumentative but I need a clarification. Physics dictates that the explosive force follows the path of least resistance. This is the reason a ball goes down the barrel of a flintlock instead of all the blast coming out the open vent. How is it possible for a nipple to fly out of an underhammer instead of the bullet. Even a slightly worn or loose nipple would present resistance to escaping gas, plus the gas would need to push back the hammer, and I don't know your gun but my spring is very strong. Assuming all this has happened I seriously doubt there would be remaining force to embed the nipple in my arm. Does anyone on this forum actually know someone this happened to? I'd like to here the story directly from the injured party, just to insure I don't make the same boneheaded mistake with my underhammer. :idunno:

SA, it can happen. It does happen. My best friend learned the hard way with one in his arm. The force is substantial and can push the hammer back and, literally, fire the nipple downwards. Instead of arguing with facts, I suggest you get the proper nipple and go on the side of safety.
I used to sell H&A rifle in my ml shop and my family used the undie hammers, I have a fair bit of experience with them. There was a thread on this subject several months ago. Some searching will bring it up. I'm still drawing a memory block on the proper size and thread but it is there and good dealers, like TOW can help you.
If you don't want to accept my advice, I'll then advise you make sure your medical insurance is paid up, you have your cell phone handy and 911 on speed dial. That little bronze projectile embedded in your arm could ruin yer day.

 

[Billnpatti]

Ah, yes. The old H&A "Nipple in the arm" trick. Missed it by that much! Fortunately, I was holding my rifle with my handgun style hold (right hand in the usual position and left hand over the right hand) when the nipple blew out. It split my forestock and one piece hit a friend who was standing next to me. No damage to the friend but we were both stunned and my left arm now has some black freckle tattoos from the burnt powder. I never found the nipple but I was able to repair the forestock nicely so that the split does not show. I replaced the nipple with the correct size and have never had a problem since. It was lots of fun, we both danced and sang (yeah, right) but once was enough. Actually, I love my little .45 cal H&A Buggy Rifle and would not part with it.

Note to smoothbore addict: I been there and done that. I can personally attest to it being a fact.

 

[aeatwood]

With the ball traveling down the bore freely (no obstruction) the breech is still subject to a LOT of pressure. More in fact, in the small bores, than the large bores. A .45 may easily reach 15k psi. Even on the small surface area of a nipple face, that is a LOT of thrust.

 

[asbrown]

OK, I'll accept your word that it happened to you. I don't need to worry about mine being the wrong nipple because I used a Rice barrel and drilled for a standard nipple.

SO, if this is a regular occurance with underhammers, why have I never heard of a percussion sidelock blowing out the drum? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

I'm seriously curious here fellows. Maybe you could share just what you did wrong that caused the nipple to blow out of the rifle. I intend to build more underhammers in the future and safety really is the key.

 

[asbrown]

SORRY. I din't mean to hijack your thread. You will get used to flipping the gun to cap it. It only feels wierd for a little while. Enjoy your underhammer, I do mine!!

 

[Billnpatti]

Well, here's what several of us figured out about my nipple blowing out. My barrel is threaded for a 1/4-28 threaded nipple. There is a metric nipple that is very close to that thread but is just a tiny bit smaller. It can be threaded into a 1/4-28 hole and seem to fit. We decided that since the threads on my barrel were not stripped but contained just a bit of metal from the nipple that the barrel maker accidently put a metric nipple in the barrel before shipping it. All I had to do was run a 1/4-28 tap through the hole to clean out the threads and then put in the correct size nipple.

Does this happen often? I can't say. All I can say is that several knowlegable people came to the decision that this is the most likely explanation for why my nipple blew out. I had shot the rifle about 25 times that day with no problem before the nipple blew out.

My rifle is not a factory built rifle. I built my rifle from parts that I bought from Deer Creek Products in Waldron, Indiana and I ordered a barrel from a well known barrel maker. The barrel maker installed the nipple. Anyone can make a mistake so I will not mention the name of the maker.

 

[Rifleman1776]

OK, I'll accept your word that it happened to you. I don't need to worry about mine being the wrong nipple because I used a Rice barrel and drilled for a standard nipple.

SO, if this is a regular occurance with underhammers, why have I never heard of a percussion sidelock blowing out the drum?

Good. Using a standard nipple is good.
I wouldn't call the mishap a "regular occurrance". It has happened to those who did not use the correct fit nipple. Being unusual the events are memorable and noteworthy.
e.g. the Titanic only sunk once but we still talk about it. :wink:

 

[Billnpatti]

If you are considering an underhammer, you might want to build a kit and save a ton of money. An underhammer kit is not all that hard to build. Take a look at this one: http://www.longrifles-pr.com/underhammer.shtml

 

[asbrown]

Whew, OK. I know about the metric thats close to 1/4 28. accidently got a hold of one myself. Luckily I'd heard about them here and when it didn't feel right goin in I pulled it and checked it. Different rifle, different story.

 

[Razor62]

I recently built an underhammer using the action made by Pete Allen. I haven't fired it yet but the hammer design appears as though it'll keep cap spray to a minimum. You may want to look into this design if you're considering an underhammer to build. Joe & Suzi at The Gun Works supplied most of the parts for mine.

If anyone's interested in viewing the completed rifle I can email you a link to the Photobucket album. I won't post pics though because she's in no way "Traditional". A modern take on an old idea if you will.

 

[bitehard]

Hi all. I am not a frequent poster but sometimes I can"t help myself and do wade in. I own 3 ,36.45.50. and have sold about 30 of them in varing states of finish. While I have not recieved any bad burns I do confess to a few tickles. When this happen I know that it is time to change the nipple. What I think happens is that the main charge is returning out the enlargened vent in the nipple. The other thing that is happening. The main chamber preasure will vary thus giving inconsistant accuracy. With my target barrel I change the nipple at about 70 shots. It may seem a silly thing to do but the gun always proforms and the only reason it doesn't is the fool holding on to it.
I have seen at events where hammers have come to half and full cock with the person concerned been saying the guns accuracy has gone off the boil. One person at one shoot got offered $10 for his heap of rubbish. He woke up and did the nipple thing.
The other thing that I don't do is hold my rifle directly underneath. My arm is usualy about 7.30 to 9.00 o'clock.
Making sure that the cavaty in the hammer nose is deep enough is also a very good idea. Well thats my cents worth. Do try it and see if it work for you.

 

[George T.]

Between my ex-wife and I we must have fired 3,000 + shots out of a H&R 36 and Never had any problem at all. Lucky I guess! Geo. T.

 

[FishDFly]

Here is a view of a modern reproduction rifle with an underhammer: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/492/1/AAL-869

Wouldn't there be more of a tendency for the cap to fall off? Also, is it awkward to invert the rifle to recap, or is it something you would get used to?

I shoot underhammer pistols in line matches never have had a cap fall off nor do I invert the pistol to cap. The same with my rifles.

Never had a problem with my forearm being being injured with underhammer rifles.

I prefer the flash from a cap being under the firearm than near my eye and glasses being damaged by flying cap fragments.