Unfamiliar Matchlock Style

[TobJohn]

This one is similar to the one below that may have been used in Plymouth.

That is a very close match! Thank you for sharing it. Great to see they also attribute it to Italy. I am becoming convinced that it is a national style.

 

[trettie]

Great point! Too bad anyone we could ask is dead ... and I don't mean Michael ...

A much later illustration, but the hunter’s pose is interesting.

 

[TobJohn]

This one is similar to the one below that may have been used in Plymouth.View attachment 195610View attachment 195614

Unfortunately they have not added the musket to their online collection, but I sent them (Pilgrim Hall Museum) an email asking if they knew the length and caliber.

 

[TobJohn]

a sort of Japoneese cheek stock hold

https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/254228

The top picture almost perfectly shows French soldiers using petronels like tanegashima matchlocks, which backs up your observation.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

The top picture almost perfectly shows French soldiers using petronels like tanegashima matchlocks, which backs up your observation.

That's most interesting ... but makes we wonder, why then was word 'petronel' used when the derivative of that word is indeed 'chest'?

Or, is what we are observing ... now 100s of years later ... is but a part of the continuous evolution and development of shooting, where maybe petronels had started out with the intent to be fired when placed against the chest, but then some forward thinking soldier said, "Hey lookie guys, I have a better idea that makes me more accurate!"?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ...

 

[TobJohn]

That's most interesting ... but makes we wonder, why then was word 'petronel' used when the derivative of that word is indeed 'chest'?

Or, is what we are observing ... now 100s of years later ... is but a part of the continuous evolution and development of shooting, where maybe petronels had started out with the intent to be fired when placed against the chest, but then some forward thinking soldier said, "Hey lookie guys, I have a better idea that makes me more accurate!"?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ...

I think the Wikipedia article, or maybe somewhere else, claims that there actually were guns (those hand cannons with the metal tiller) called petronels that were fired from the chest and then somehow these guns also got given the name.

 

[TobJohn]

Going off everything so far, this is my theory:
1. There are the handgonnes in the top image that are fired from the chest, so are called petronels.
2. They are carried with a chest belt to keep them from falling off the rider.
3. A new gun is developed with the curved stock and is used with riders because it fits better with armor.
4. It is also carried with a belt across the chest and because a gun a rider carriers from a chest belt is called a petronel, this is also called petronel.
5. It is adopted by infantry where its originally meaning no longer applies, but the form remains.

 

[rickystl]

Possibly in this order :

1 Started under the armpit
2 To the chest
3 To the cheek
4 To the shoulder

One could include 1 and 2 during the same period (?)

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Possibly in this order :

1 Started under the armpit
2 To the chest
3 To the cheek
4 To the shoulder

One could include 1 and 2 during the same period (?)

Rick

That seems like a reasonable progression.

Does anyone know how 14th and 15th century heavy crossbows were fired? I always assumed they would have had more influence on stock development, but I cannot find any connection.

 

[TobJohn]

I am a little disappointed in the dearth of period images I could find, but there is some evidence for cheek stocking starting with crossbows:

Most of the other period art is early enough that its that art style that looks very flat and unrealistic.

 

[rickystl]

That seems like a reasonable progression.

Does anyone know how 14th and 15th century heavy crossbows were fired? I always assumed they would have had more influence on stock development, but I cannot find any connection.

That's a good question. Of course I have no idea. But I've never tried to research it either. Are there any period drawings/artists sketch showing this ? What I have noticed was that the crossbow stocks all seem to taper going back and ending in a more or less square blunt end. And what we might call the LOP between the release lever and the end of the butt stock looks considerable. And a breast plate is another consideration. Makes me think the position of the original crossbows was under the armpit. (?) But the totally straight stock of the crossbow stock might require placing the elbow at about a 90 degree angle to get a sight picture. Just guessing here. But the tillers for the early hand gonnes also seemed skinny, straight, and 24-36" long.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

LOL. Hi John. Just as I entered my Post, I see your latest Post. Notice in your first two photos, both soldiers positioning their elbows at 90 degree angles (similar to what we still do today lol). With the length of the crossbow stock being what it was, leads me to think more under the arm versus cheek. (Would have been great to get Michael's opinion on this).

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

LOL. Hi John. Just as I entered my Post, I see your latest Post. Notice in your first two photos, both soldiers positioning their elbows at 90 degree angles (similar to what we still do today lol). With the length of the crossbow stock being what it was, leads me to think more under the arm versus cheek. (Would have been great to get Michael's opinion on this).

Rick

That seems like a good possibility. I will see if I can find any better art. Unfortunately, more life like art coincides with the widespread use guns, so its hard to find something with good detail that is not late enough it could have been influenced by guns. I know the late hunting crossbows had the same stock and trigger set up as wheellock rifles and I assume the rifle was first.

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-hunting-crossbow-416-c-4fc4905b02

A lot of the images in this post look like cheek stocking:
The Catch to the Crossbow | Voynich Portal

 

[TobJohn]

This one is similar to the one below that may have been used in Plymouth.View attachment 195610View attachment 195614

The Pilgrim Hall Italian matchlock is 61.5 inches and .73 caliber.

 

[TobJohn]

After getting some more research material, I feel pretty confident that the guns I started this thread with are all Italian matchlocks

I don’t read Italian, so good thing the pictures are pretty and google translate exists.

Two guns with the same stock shape and serpentine as the other ones. I may try to take some actual decent photos later.

And a bonus of another example of an
external spring wheellock!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I am a little disappointed in the dearth of period images I could find, but there is some evidence for cheek stocking starting with crossbows:
View attachment 196945

Well, before Crossbowmen .... there were archers. And yes, English archers drew back almost to the ear, but the point is (no pun intended) is (1) having the point of the arrow in the same plane as the eye improves the aim, as does (2) establishing what in archery is called the "anchor point", i.e., touching a tip of a drawing finger to the cheekbone, side of the face, a certain tooth on your jawline, or to the corner of the mouth.

That 'anchor' is ... really, no different than 'cheeking' an arm so as to make the hold more consistent, which should improve the inherent accuracy.

 

[Canute Rex]

There's a clue in a breastplate dug up, I think, at Jamestown. It has a flange, like a piece of angle iron, attached to the front of the right armhole, with the piece sticking out forward and to the right. Apparently it was put there to make shouldering a musket more practical. Without it the buttstock would slip off onto the bicep. Not great for the muskets of that era.

Hence the development and persistence of the cheek stock. For an armored man, much preferable to a shoulder stock. The small, short, octagonal stocks of the Italian carbines are designed for this. Same for Tanegashimas. Look at the armor of a Japanese soldier and imagine trying to shoulder a modern firearm wearing that. Tricky.

You'll see the cheek stock fade away alongside the use of armor for musket troops. Cavalry carbines retained the cheek stock longer than foot soldier's muskets, just as breastplates lasted longer among cavalry. The progress is uneven, of course, as nothing in life is 100% pragmatic.

 

[Jaeger]

That seems like a reasonable progression.

Does anyone know how 14th and 15th century heavy crossbows were fired? I always assumed they would have had more influence on stock development, but I cannot find any connection.

I can tell you this: the German word for crossbow is Armbrust, which is an interesting term because Arm= arm (pretty easy to translate that one) and Brust= breast or chest. Because of that name I've always wondered if the first crossbows were held against the center of the chest and fired, maybe because that seemed a more logical and centered way of aiming?

 

[TobJohn]

There's a clue in a breastplate dug up, I think, at Jamestown. It has a flange, like a piece of angle iron, attached to the front of the right armhole, with the piece sticking out forward and to the right. Apparently it was put there to make shouldering a musket more practical. Without it the buttstock would slip off onto the bicep. Not great for the muskets of that era.

Hence the development and persistence of the cheek stock. For an armored man, much preferable to a shoulder stock. The small, short, octagonal stocks of the Italian carbines are designed for this. Same for Tanegashimas. Look at the armor of a Japanese soldier and imagine trying to shoulder a modern firearm wearing that. Tricky.

You'll see the cheek stock fade away alongside the use of armor for musket troops. Cavalry carbines retained the cheek stock longer than foot soldier's muskets, just as breastplates lasted longer among cavalry. The progress is uneven, of course, as nothing in life is 100% pragmatic.

That is a great observation about armor and makes sense with the evolution of stock shape.

I am not sure on the top ones exact date (i don't have a lot of faith in Russian museums, even if it is The Hermitage), but this could potentially show the stock evolving into a shoulder stock through the second half of the 16th century.

My understanding is that the fishtail is a roughly parallel evolution, but you can see some similarities in their shape.

Michael Tromner had a massive petronel musket. I wonder if a rest would have mitigated the awkwardness of not being able to shoulder the gun because there is another point of stabilization.
Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - interesting breech-loading petronel-looking for additional info

 

[TobJohn]

I can tell you this: the German word for crossbow is Armbrust, which is an interesting term because Arm= arm (pretty easy to translate that one) and Brust= breast or chest. Because of that name I've always wondered if the first crossbows were held against the center of the chest and fired, maybe because that seemed a more logical and centered way of aiming?

It could also potentially describe the loading, assuming the word came into use before the fancier methods of pullies and cranequins.