Unknown Flintlock?

[JayGibson]

Greeting to you all:

I have made a deal for a flinter of unknown origin. (Not that it would take much to be unknown to me)

Maybe you folks would help me? I understand that it's not some world beating super rifle, I expect it is a 70s repro that was 'aged'? The guy I bought it from bought it because he thought it was an early 1800s rifle. He was going to hang it on the wall.

 

[rafterob]

I Believe that is an older model Traditions Rifle. I don't know what they were called. A member of our club has one. It shoots well but is barrel heavy. The star on the cheekrest and the escutcheons on the forearm are the indicators. He ended up putting a new lock on his, using a Chamber's/Siler gunmakers lock.

 

[galamb]

This looks like a "mongrel" that someone put together while learning how to build.

It isn't horrible, but there is evidence that their inletting skills were not developed or they weren't careful (note the marks where the x-acto knife slipped in your close-up pic of the escutcheon at the barrel pin - the escutcheon by the way is die cut (probably done by Ted Cash and available from many current suppliers).

The tang appears as it would have come from the supplier - doesn't look shaped in any way.

Based on what I can see of the trigger guard and the comb line it looks like the builder might have been going for a "Lehigh" style.

A better picture of the lock may lead to an identification of the lock mfg.

If you drift out the barrel pins, remove the tang screw and pull the barrel there may be makers marks on the bottom (from the barrel maker).

If this was built by a noted "modern" builder it certainly was done in their "apprentice" phase. You will probably never be able to nail down who built it, but you may be able to learn who made the barrel, lock and possibly trigger giving you some idea of the quality of the parts used.

 

[JayGibson]

Thank you. I am obliged to you. I was way off base in my thinking. Live and learn, I reckon. This is the lock on this one:

 

[JayGibson]

This looks like a "mongrel" that someone put together while learning how to build.

It isn't horrible, but there is evidence that their inletting skills were not developed or they weren't careful (note the marks where the x-acto knife slipped in your close-up pic of the escutcheon at the barrel pin - the escutcheon by the way is die cut (probably done by Ted Cash and available from many current suppliers).

The tang appears as it would have come from the supplier - doesn't look shaped in any way.

Based on what I can see of the trigger guard and the comb line it looks like the builder might have been going for a "Lehigh" style.

A better picture of the lock may lead to an identification of the lock mfg.

If you drift out the barrel pins, remove the tang screw and pull the barrel there may be makers marks on the bottom (from the barrel maker).

If this was built by a noted "modern" builder it certainly was done in their "apprentice" phase. You will probably never be able to nail down who built it, but you may be able to learn who made the barrel, lock and possibly trigger giving you some idea of the quality of the parts used.

Guess the same incompetent apprentice built this one from 2008, it appears the same, either that or the first responder is correct

Lock is a Maslam(?), fairly common I think:

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8658942

 

[JayGibson]

This looks like a "mongrel" that someone put together while learning how to build.

It isn't horrible, but there is evidence that their inletting skills were not developed or they weren't careful (note the marks where the x-acto knife slipped in your close-up pic of the escutcheon at the barrel pin - the escutcheon by the way is die cut (probably done by Ted Cash and available from many current suppliers).

The tang appears as it would have come from the supplier - doesn't look shaped in any way.

Based on what I can see of the trigger guard and the comb line it looks like the builder might have been going for a "Lehigh" style.

A better picture of the lock may lead to an identification of the lock mfg.

If you drift out the barrel pins, remove the tang screw and pull the barrel there may be makers marks on the bottom (from the barrel maker).

If this was built by a noted "modern" builder it certainly was done in their "apprentice" phase. You will probably never be able to nail down who built it, but you may be able to learn who made the barrel, lock and possibly trigger giving you some idea of the quality of the parts used.

Guess the same incompetent apprentice built this one from 2008, it appears the same, either that or the first responder is correct

Lock is a Maslam(?), fairly common I think:

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=[/quote]

Some images of the 2008 gun I found that appears the same:

 

[OcelotZ3]

Interesting... There appear to be some forum tools at work which mangle the link name on purpose...

It does appear to be the identical rifle!

 

[JayGibson]

Interesting... There appear to be some forum tools at work which mangle the link name on purpose...

It does appear to be the identical rifle!

Let me help :thumbsup:

Blurb:

"PENNSYLVANIA FLINTLOCK RIFLE"

"I HAVE FOR AUCTION A PENNSYLVANIA STYLE RIFLE THAT I HAVE HAD FOR OVER 30 YEARS. THIS RIFLE IS A FLINT LOCK AND HAS A MASLAM LOCK. THE RIFLE IS SOLID (STOCK IS IN GREAT SHAPE)AND IS 41 CAL SMOOTH BORE. IT DOES NEED TO BE CLEANED UP IT HAS SOME RUST. I DID SHOOT THIS GUN 30 YEARS AGO AND NOT SINCE. IT SHOT VERY GOOD. IT HAS A VERY PRETTY CURLY MAPLE STOCK AND BRASS ORNAMENTS. I WILL LET THE NEW OWNER DECIDE TO WHAT EXTENT HE OR SHE WISHES TO RENEW IT. THE RIFLE IS 55" LONG AND THE BARREL IS 41" IN LENGHT AND BROWNED. THIS RIFLE IS NOT A KIT OR MANUFACTURED GUN. BUYER WILL PAY ONLY WHAT UPS CHARGES TO GET YOU YOUR RIFLE. I SELL ONLY IN THE US. E-MAIL ME WITH QUESTIONS"

It sold for $500.00 in 2008. That is all I could find on one similar, but as I stated, my ignorance is boundless on flintlock rifles. I have my own gun forum, wedealinlead, but I am just not very edified on flinters, as I stated. my knowledge runs toward Big Bore SA revolvers and Big Bore modern rifles, though I have numerous ball and percussion cap revolvers and one T/C Hawken rifle.

Edit to add: The caps are from the auction ad, not me. Sorry.

 

[LRB]

Same gun. Compare the curl in the wood at the tail of both lock pics.

 

[Zonie]

If I didn't know better, I'd say the gun in the original post is the gun with the rusty lock.

Too many things are exactly the same for it to be otherwise.

As for Traditions Firearms, they weren't importing muzzleloaders until after CVA quit importing and selling sidelock guns.

The lock does seem to have more than a few characteristics of the CVA, Spanish made guns though.

 

[JayGibson]

Same gun. Compare the curl in the wood at the tail of both lock pics.

Yes, I agree.

More from the seller of mine, might help might not.

"KENTUCKY PERCUSSION LONG RIFLE CURLY MAPLE"

"I purchased this rifle as an early 1800s piece but now believe it to be a combination of antique and parts made maybe 70 years ago. I have lots of photos, if you send me your email address I will send them to you. Still very beautiful, lovely curly maple pattern. Enough age to give the wood a warm patina. A great wall hanger sure to be noticed and admired by all. 55" long, bore is just under 1/2" and I believe it still can shoot! Shipping is $42 including insurance shipped. . . "

I assume by bore diameter that he understands how to measure it and thus it is ~.50 caliber.

Note that he refers to it as a "Kentucky" and as a "Percussion". I do not think he is a gun guy.

I apologize for the 'string posting'. Is it just an older Traditions as the first responder has posted?

I paid $490, for it, shipped and insured. Oh well. . .

 

[JayGibson]

If I didn't know better, I'd say the gun in the original post is the gun with the rusty lock.

Too many things are exactly the same for it to be otherwise.

As for Traditions Firearms, they weren't importing muzzleloaders until after CVA quit importing and selling sidelock guns.

The lock does seem to have more than a few characteristics of the CVA, Spanish made guns though.

I wondered the same thing! They both have the MM MASLAM WARRANTED locks.

The bore size would seem different as well, though.

 

[MacRob46]

I agree - it is the same gun although now it has been cleaned up a bit. The tang is very poorly inlet and the rest of the inletting, while not crude, is also not very well done. The over all architecture is not terrible but the builder left way too much wood on the stock, every where. The cheek piece is wrong, the molding around the lock and side plate are wrong. The lock is the "Maslin" style which used to be common terminology for a lock with the type of decoration and the rounded tail with the little point on the end (for lack of better descriptive terms). It should have a nose cap, which would be a given for this style of rifle. IMHO, depending on the make and condition of the barrel as well as the lock and how the hardware cleans up, it should be worth $400 to $500. It has got to be very muzzle heavy and the lock probably needs some work to function properly. It was obviously not well cared for. I suspect it was made in the 60s or 70s although novices have been producing guns for years so it could be later.

 

[JayGibson]

Maybe the hack butcher made two of the God-awful abominations?

If the two different sellers have the caliber correct then it is not the exact same rifle. I dismiss the notion of rechambering with prejudice.

After counting rings, I am convinced,same gun.

The guy must not understand bore diameter. . .

Insightful way of figuring this. We can rest assured that the 'smith' only crafted one of these vile wretches and I bought it.

 

[galamb]

Looking at the lock, it does look remarkably like an original Maslam (ca. 1830-40 era) and could be a real antique, but other parts, especially the inlays, just look modern.

(this pic is from an 1830'ish Bedford rifle)

I am more inclined to agree with the ad which stated the seller believed that this was built using old and new parts.

I don't recall a Traditions or a CVA ever coming with a curly maple stock.

As to the caliber - one had it listed as percussion. If he didn't know the difference between flint and percussion, odds are not high that got the caliber correct either - may have got two rifles mixed up that he was trying to sell when listing.

 

[sleeperNY]

They are one in the same. Look at the curl at the patchbox. It is the same. There is no way that could happen unless it is the same rifle.

Jim

 

[JayGibson]

They are one in the same. Look at the curl at the patchbox. It is the same. There is no way that could happen unless it is the same rifle.

Jim

Jim:

I edited while you were posting. I looked at the stock at the trigger area. You are 100% correct. No way these curls could be as they are by random chance.

I suspect the seller has no understanding of bore diameter, as another fellow has mentioned.

Thanks to all who took the time and gave the effort to help me reason out that they are the same rifle.

To those who felt driven by unknowable forces to tell me how poorly crafted it is:

That is exactly why I rarely ask questions on forums. I paid for this gun. It helps me in no way to identify it. I do not give tinker's damn what you think of the craftsmanship. I know it is just second rate garbage, good.

 

[galamb]

You are missing the point and getting offended.

The premier way of identifying an "unsigned" rifle is by looking at the craftsmanship and then trying attribute it to either a specific builder, a school or area where it possibly could have been built.

By pointing out the issues it does help you rule out any number of builders, antique or contemporary, since they would not have produced the piece.

It is simply an unsigned rifle from an unknown maker with nothing unique that points you in one direction or the other.

It obviously appealed to you and you bought it - others opinions are just that. If you like it, that's all that matters.

 

[JayGibson]

Yes, I like it.

Any discursive reasoning that involves telling me what shortcomings my property has are superfluous and useless to me. If one feels compelled to reason in a line that involves telling me of the pathetic and shameful mass that I have purchased, I'm somehow convinced that the same person possesses the skills to reason thus without typing it, then post conclusions.

I will rust brown the barrel, inspect it a bit, and rock fire. I shoot ever day in my backyard, so does my wife.

Regards.

 

[kaintuck]

Jay,
I believe it has it's own pretty-ness, as ALL "kentucky's" do!
I REALLY like the lock.....it very we'll be OLD, I think one would be glad to have a fireplace with this rifle hanging on it!

Thank for posting it!