Unmentionable guns

[Many Klatch]

I wrote a letter to the editor of the NMLRA Muzzleblasts that got published. Since there area a few people here that aren't NMLRA members I thought I might drop in some of those thoughts here.

I am not against the more modern muzzleloaders. I do take exception to how they are loaded. Most of the ranges I shoot at are safe as long as blackpowder guns with roundball are shot there. However, if someone shows up with a 45 caliber 400 grain lead bullet over 100 grains of propellant, then he is shooting what back in the day was called a 45/100 which had sights for over 1,000 yards. As a safety thing, I don't think any blackpowder gun should be shot with bullets and heavy loads unless the range is safe for 1,000 yard guns.

If the moderny gun boys want to show up and shoot using round ball and scopes I'm OK with that as long as we aren't shooting for the same prizes. If it's just a fun shoot then bring them on.

If I have jumped the fence of what is allowed moderators, please excuse this exercise.

 

[BrownBear]

I'll get my feathers singed for this, but I think 1,000 yards is a fair minimum for roundball ranges too. Unless of course you want to start putting a max diameter and powder charge on allowed round ball guns, too. The balls may not be accurate at all way out there, but in my direct experience shooting a wide range of ball diameters over ocean bays and watching for splashes, they go a whole lot further than most guys realize.

 

[Billnpatti]

I wrote a letter to the editor of the NMLRA Muzzleblasts that got published. Since there area a few people here that aren't NMLRA members I thought I might drop in some of those thoughts here.

I am not against the more modern muzzleloaders. I do take exception to how they are loaded. Most of the ranges I shoot at are safe as long as blackpowder guns with roundball are shot there. However, if someone shows up with a 45 caliber 400 grain lead bullet over 100 grains of propellant, then he is shooting what back in the day was called a 45/100 which had sights for over 1,000 yards. As a safety thing, I don't think any blackpowder gun should be shot with bullets and heavy loads unless the range is safe for 1,000 yard guns.

If the moderny gun boys want to show up and shoot using round ball and scopes I'm OK with that as long as we aren't shooting for the same prizes. If it's just a fun shoot then bring them on.

If I have jumped the fence of what is allowed moderators, please excuse this exercise.

I agree that we NMLRA members need to be more accepting of those who shoot the modern unmentionable muzzleloaders. However, they need to have their own matches that are separate from those of us who shoot traditional muzzleloaders. As long as they are shooting on their own range and competing against others who shoot the unmentionables, I think that is fine and it is likely what we need to do to keep NMLRA going. That's my :2

 

[tenngun]

I think that’s right. A ball might not go a thousand yards but safety shourld come first. Yes a .45/100 is more powerful at 500 yards then almost any ball, no one needs to be in danger.

 

[meanmike8665]

FYI, they are.

Michael

 

[BrownBear]

I think that’s right. A ball might not go a thousand yards but safety shourld come first. Yes a .45/100 is more powerful at 500 yards then almost any ball, no one needs to be in danger.

Here's another insight no one thinks about:

We're all aware just what happens to a round ball with very little wind. Put a tailwind behind a round ball and you can toss all the theoretical talk about "max range" out the window. When we're shooting with an offshore breeze, it really stretches the range a bunch.

Harder to see the splashes with an honest wind, but let the air snort pretty good in the same direction a ball is traveling and see what happens. Never shot anything smaller than 50 cal over water, but a .570 58 cal adds about 30-40% to the travel of a .490 ball, and a .730 ball can virtually double it if you can stand the recoil.

 

[Stumpkiller]

In this area most ranges are at the base of a hill and there is no problem stopping whatever projectiles in a berm.

I was a member of the NMLRA for years, but when the magazine went three months with scopes on every rifle in their hunting articles I let my membership lapse. The NRA seems to be just as good.

 

[Spikebuck]

1,000 yards is a fair minimum for roundball ranges too.

In a recent posting, a person was asking about accuracy at 400 yards and my first impression was "What the heck?" because I don't do the competitive target shooting scene...all my practice is just geared toward hunting. The responses absolutely amazed me as I learned about 600 yard plus competitions with "traditional" muzzleloaders. I think someone even mentioned something about competitions over 1000 yards?

Now granted, we're talking about highly specialized "traditional" guns here, but it would appear that any range accepting those guns should not have any more of a safety concern than the modern plastic stock inline crowd coming to shoot. So I think Brownbear has a pretty legitimate statement even if it's limited to the projectile instead of "traditional" vs "modern" ignition system. A hot load behind a PRB will go a LONG ways when pointed up in the air.

 

[curator]

The OP has a point about bullet travel. At least here in Flat-land Florida, Public shooting ranges are permitted where there is "only" 2 miles of no inhabited buildings or paved roads if the shooting is limited to handguns and muzzle loading rifles. Center fire rifles require seven uninhabited miles behind the berms. While I have doubts that an elongated cylindro-conical bullet could travel seven miles, I do believe they can fly more than two miles with the right propellent.

 

[hawkeye2]

It's possible that I'm confused but are you talking about the backstop being able to contain the projectile? Any range that is safe for your average centerfire hunting rifle will stop a .45-100. Any club range I have ever shot on had a backstop that was way more than adequate. No problems here with anyone shooting a load like that or even larger as long as they don't shoot over the berm.

 

[BrownBear]

I read it that he's concerned about errant shots that miss a backstop.

We have a number of holes in the panels hanging from the ceiling of our indoor range and even a few in the ceiling itself, gifts from the professional LEO's that contract for range use including their full auto whatevers.

Shots go wild, and sooner or later they come back to earth behind the backstops.

 

[Louisk]

I did my state muzzleloader qualification shoot at the university range here in Fairbanks. It's an outdoor range that's set in a large pit with a series of large overhead beams set along the range and perpendicular to it designed to catch any high errant shots and prevent them from going into the neighborhood located about half a mile or less downrange. Kind of a cool idea, but would be costly to build, I'm sure.

I went shooting a couple of times down by the river, where it's popular to shoot here, but that made me too nervous...too many sloughs and bushes that a skier, boat or snow machine could pop out of. I know the chances are remote, but I've learned that one must consider Murphy's Law in all things.

 

[52Bore]

The OP does seem to be a lame attempt at discrediting - same as the 'letters to the editor' on this subject as it appears many have never been to Friendship, nor know little about what goes on at the National Matches.

 

[Zonie]

First off, I don't like the title of this topic for several reasons.

One is, I've already received several complaints about us talking about unmentionable guns.
With these in mind, I came here planning on blowing away the topic.

After reading it, I find the subject is not really about unmentionable guns. It is about guns shooting slugs and the long ranges they can fly.

As long as the posts stick to that subject and we don't get into bashing "unmentionable guns and those who shoot them", I'll leave the topic here.

The second reason I don't like the title is, muzzleloaders have been shooting slugs from the 1840's and their guns and bullets are fair game for discussion here on the MLF.

As for the idea of limiting shooting ranges to roundball only that doesn't make much sense to me.
All of the shooting ranges I know of are quite capable of safely allowing people with high powered CF rifles to shoot there and there is nothing a .45 caliber-100 grain powder charge in a muzzle loading rifle can do that can match one of those modern guns, except making a nice cloud of pungent smoke.

As for using scopes, yes, I agree that special shooting matches for them should be set up if they don't already exist. After all, a rifle scope gives an unfair advantage to the shooter over someone shooting open sights. (Scopes put both the target and the cross-hairs on the same plain so the shooter can see both clearly at the same time. The human eye can only focus at one distance at any one time so the open sight shooter must either focus on the rear sight, the front sight or the target. The front sight is the recommended sight to focus on.)

Even if special matches are set up for telescopic sights, I think there should also be a "Unlimited" match that allows either type of sights.
This would allow open sight shooters and telescopic sight shooters to compete directly with each other.

I've seen some open sight shooters that can out-shoot guys with telescopic sights and it would be nice to allow them to demonstrate their skills. :grin:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I think that is fine and it is likely what we need to do to keep NMLRA going. That's my :2

I am reminded of an old story about a farmer whose favorite horse went lame....Not willing to let it die, he called the Veterinarian ...The Veterinarian knew the horse was a goner, and not wanting to lose a customer he pumped the horse full of medicine......The horse died and the farmer got a $500.00 bill and a dead horse. :hmm:

 

[Col. Batguano]

RB range is determined by shot size (which is ballistic coefficient) and initial velocity (though air density matters too). In ye olden days, a country's territorial limit (offshore) was traditionally one league, or 3 nautical miles (3.45 statute miles). Coincidentally or not, that just so happened to be the maximum range of an average shore battery.

Some countries CLAIMED a greater territorial limit, but there wasn't much they could do about enforcing it, so that became the standard for a long long time.

 

[smo]

Woods walks don’t have a berm.
I can see where there would be a real concern shooting bullets a gongs swinging at various ranges.
There’s usually a hill as a back stop but not always .
Then there’s ricochets.....

 

[RedFeather]

I don't know of any 1,000 yard ranges near where I live with the exception of the Quantico sniper range. That's a lot of territory. But I can see someone with the space maybe wanting to try his hand with a Rigby or Whitworth. As to a .45 400 grain atop 100 grains equalling a .45-100, I think that would likely be closer to a .45-70, since I'm under the impression that cartridges produce a bit higher pressures. At any rate, a .45-70 is pretty safe if the range is properly set up. Most loads for those modern rigs are more often lighter handgun bullets. I often wonder what the attraction is shooting 250 grain pills over 150 grains in a seven pound gun given Newton's third law.

 

[smo]

It's possible that I'm confused but are you talking about the backstop being able to contain the projectile? Any range that is safe for your average centerfire hunting rifle will stop a .45-100. Any club range I have ever shot on had a backstop that was way more than adequate. No problems here with anyone shooting a load like that or even larger as long as they don't shoot over the berm.

I know of two cases where that has happened.

The first was at Trail Glades range in Miami-Dade Co. Fl.

They had to redo the berms making them taller due to round balls being shot at 25 & 50 yards.

The berms were at 125 yards or so, the problem was the round balls were said to have bounced/ ricocheted off the ground over the back of the berm.

I’m thinking Florida, sandy soil. About two to three inches it’s Coral rock.

Depending on location of course.

The other location was here in Tn.

A Black Powder Club had a range setup with a berm along side of a creek.

The berm was t very high but the creek was even lower.

Somehow ricochets or over shooting the berm got lead into the local water way.

It’s my understand a rather expensive clean up happened as well as the berms getting rebuilt.

 

[BrownBear]

I have to confess that I was among the folks who poopooed the round ball as a downrange danger for any distance. That is, until we started shooting in a new place. The trouble is, we launch a RB (any bullet actually) and can't see it, so we're only guessing at what's going on way out there.

You might have wondered about the "over water" shooting I described. As a matter of fact our new shooting spot is an open beach with water behind it. Perhaps unique to remote Alaska, that open water is a dandy "back stop" because you can see boats coming for miles, and we simply don't shoot when they're around or stop shooting when they show up.

Meanwhile we get to watch just about every blessed bullet or ball as it continues downrange skipping like a kid tossing rocks. Now and then a log or big hunk-o-trash comes floating by out in the bay and we even get to try our hand at long range shooting to ridiculous ranges, more mortar shooting than anything. Great fun all around.

Balls just skipping over the water go an amazingly long distance, enough hops and skips to make any young rock chucker jealous. Let those floating objects appear and you'll scare yourself silly just how far away you can make a splash in the bay with a round ball. I won't even get down to the specifics on distance, but the other thing about open water is it's pretty easy to use a rangefinder to confirm them.

My point in all this is to report that unless we want more headlines about muzzleloader accidents, we need to be careful about range. They go lots further than most would like you to believe.