Veteran Arms opinions

[Columbus]

One word aka JUNK!

Which ones have you owned and could you detail the problems?

 

[Columbus]

This flint pistol was from MVTC; I bought it used. Sparks great, no problems shooting at all. Roundball or shot - great fun, always draws a crowd at the range.

 

[Rudyard]

In my post I said my India musket was prouved , It was at Birmingham Proof house established 1814 only for blank mostly, But O K for ball. They will prouve to what you tell them too but are more critical if for ball loads. Export musket being proofed in India I never heard of I think its Government factories not sure about civil arms probably not too critical them being prouved at the Indian Proof houses their mark is the Ashoka looks like three lions but thers's one behind you don't see .Never seen it on the muskets exported but seem to recall local trade shotguns had the proof marks some of them got exported.

Wouldn't matter to the USA as there is no proof laws only UK wether they had to be reproofed or Indian ones was deemed fit No Idea , Had a sleep since then. On you specific proof if any in the US or Canada Ide say it was up to the seller as I don't believe there is ANY Sanctioned proof house in the US but manufacturers no doubt build strength enough to avoid misuse . tends to make them heavy affairs not the wand like qualities favoured by such as me . .UK at least you can go light and if it stands proof the maker is off the hook .. Regards Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

Just for fun here's me shooting my Middlesex Village P53.

It looks only vaguely similar to a P53, I compared it side by side with my original P53, not even close but it shoots well. I put about 50 rounds through it.

.530 round balls in paper cartridges , fun range popper with 80 gr of 2f. Very accurate for what it is . I felt no need to keep it "HC" so I put a leather FAL cheek pad on it to get a better sight picture. It's actually a lot of fun to shoot. I may use it in a Turkey shoot.

I had to satisfy my Indian musket curiosity and I have. I don't think I'll get any more of them.

Loyalist Arms was attempting to have a .65 3-band P59 made for me but the Indian manufacturer didn't want to do it.

The little .65 carbine looks neat but the shipping from Canada is like $100, and the total $$ for the gun was just too prohibitive vs. just buying a new toy from somewhere else. I mean there's only but so much you can do with a .58 or .65 smoothbore, I don't need a pile of them when I now have 3 Pedersoli .69's.

The most prevailant issue I’ve seen with Indian muskets is the breechplugs are not done correctly on many. if the pitch of the threads isn’t done correctly it will allow for a excess buildup of fouling and causes cracks (not bursts) and often their breech plugs are too long covering past the vent area.

Other issues I’ve seen are the barrel lugs are dovetailed too deep into the barrel walls.

Some older Indian made guns from the late 1990’s were made with DOM cold drawn steel and then welded together with a seam on the underside. Personally I would never shoot this type of gun, yes the originals were made this way however the gunpowder used today is very different and an overcharge or dirty barrel could cause a barrel to burst if that barrel is too delicate.

Some current manufactures like Loyalist arms are taking extra care to check for these issues and will mark the gun as unshootable if they can’t be dressed to shoot. So I would trust Loyalist Arms with their due diligence. Other gun shops like Middlesex and Military Heritage I’ve Seen some guns from their shops which were just not great quality.

 

[FlinterNick]

Well, I don't think Indian muzzle loaders are proved...not way they can be without a touch hole. And I'm not totally sure they're not cottage-industry guns. I've heard good (a few) and bad (more) reviews on them. Italian guns are at least proved.

The European proofing is done differently than American methods, but overall barrels that are Italian made by Pedersoli or Uberti or Armi Sport are very high quality made barrels with a lot of safety considerations.

Custom American made barrels are not proofed, however the barrels are made with specified safety standards.

Indian made guns can be proofed, which is practiced by some shops which is an added benefit.

 

[RAEDWALD]

It is Catch 22 in India over proofing and a touch hole. If it has a touch hole it is a firearm and must be proofed in the Indian Proof House. If it is proofed then it is a firearm and cannot be exported (except for shotguns with huge amounts of paperwork, delays and -um- pecuniary encouragements). The only way an Indian musket can be exported is not as a firearm but as a replica so they have to export them without a touch hole and unproofed. In countries which have an official proof house they need to then be proofed to be sold in their market. Thus they pass proof in Britain, France and Germany for example. In the USA you have no independent proof testing system even though there have been several attempts to get one established.

 

[FlinterNick]

FlinterNick Niether Walnut or maple are available in India . Stocking was allways a problem in the sub continent some walnut was sent out for the East India Company's needs and other local wood tried . But what they generally use isn't ideal and is 'musket cut' that is as it comes without seeking the ideal grain flow to best suit no different to most muskets it that regard . While many snear at India's products my own re enactment musket was got up from three different broken or defective rejects but after I worked on it & even posted to the US in two pieces later to repair the wrist but it served me admirably and stood proof so I was quite happy with it . VERY few replica muskets are correct when machine made .But most cant see the difference . I was once asked to look at a musket some re enactment buff workman found at a house he" Wanted to cut it down for a Musketoon" he said . Well the Musket was a near mint India Pattern original with its original Bayonet . He didn't know from the proverbial Shineola and it well illustrates what I say . I don't believe he got it . Rudyard

Personally I like being able to choose my stocks and wood grades which is why I only buy American made kits from Rifle Shoppe or Track of the Wolf. At the minimum I will only buy a factory musket made of Walnut or Maple. Most are not using Maple, Miruko used a Japanese maple on many of their guns which was very nice and cut well.

The rosewood and teak stocks grains are too tight and around mortise areas will crack and shed, in short you’ll be using lots of glue.

I know a reainactment group in New Jersey that purchase muskets from Veteran Arms in bundles and will always purchase the stocks in the white to dye them walnut and then varnish them with a mixture of epoxy and mineral spirits (very thinned resins) This works fine buy your gun will look very glossy and is difficult to touch it up when you want to refinish.

The reason why walnut or maple works better for guns is the grains are not as tight and will take stains and oils very well. I always use 100% pure linseed and tung oils on my stocks and touch ups are a lot easier and the wood looks more natural.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Some older Indian made guns from the late 1990’s were made with DOM cold drawn steel and then welded together with a seam on the underside.

Trivial pedantism but Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM) comes as a ready formed tube which has no need of welding a seam. I have seen custom USA builders who are proud that they make their own barrels from a folded strip, hammer welded shut in the old way.

Not at all relevant, but the Birmingham Trade in the early 19th century used to make barrels this way whilst bringing their forges up to heat and they were for the "American and African" trade. The same shops made the early gas company piping in the same manner which led to the tales that the gas pipes were made from old musket barrels and period references by Volunteers to their Pattern 1853 Enfields as 'the old gas pipe'.

 

[FlinterNick]

Trivial pedantism but Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM) comes as a ready formed tube which has no need of welding a seam. I have seen custom USA builders who are proud that they make their own barrels from a folded strip, hammer welded shut in the old way.

Not at all relevant, but the Birmingham Trade in the early 19th century used to make barrels this way whilst bringing their forges up to heat and they were for the "American and African" trade. The same shops made the early gas company piping in the same manner which led to the tales that the gas pipes were made from old musket barrels and period references by Volunteers to their Pattern 1853 Enfields as 'the old gas pipe'.

Yup the old ways are not always the bad ways.

A great resource for barrel making and designs are French Arms. The French were constantly concerned about the integrity of their barrels and for years would make them thicker, out of concerns that a dirty barrel would burst. And their breeches were made with flats about 1/2 an inch from the plug to allow for easier removal of the breech plug for cleaning. Over time these concerns were supplemented by the use of heat treaded steel tubing which was tapered down of course to the barrel design.

In a modern age we can make a stronger and safer product with the same replicated features of an old musket.

 

[Rudyard]

This thread gets more interesting . It is true the plug threads concerned where some times on the loose side . I know they gave difficulties generally & mostly needed 'working up' .But they are the same guns used in the making of' Sharpe's ' and serve widely in Reenactments generally . You get what you pay for . Indian artisans can & do make very good work, but the actual makers are generally nickel & dimed (Rupee & Piced ) down to a price and accordingly take less care .' You pay peanuts you get monkeys' sort of thing .
Regarding DOM barrels common galvanised water pipe is made welded seem I have turned this same tubeing so thin it made walls for cartridge cases and it fire formed just fine .So that's got to be some weld if you think about it . I also threaded & fine bored a 3 foot piece of this same water pipe, stocked it in West African hardwood (Shedua) and fitted a genuine Jimmo Babatundi flintlock in the Ikorudu lorry park style (Strongly influenced by Nigeria's traditional Ogan river culture ) I had the lock I owned it years so seemed a fitting tribute to Jimmos skill to use it up. It stood 'rabbit hole proof' and I popped a rabbit and it remains a good conversation piece in displays ..You must of course kit it out with the appropriate amulets with charms to ward of Debble debbels , evil spirits , Togalosis ect .
Ime chuckling as I write . But there must be some Ex' PCV' Piece Corps Volunteers brought one home who might read this and grin ?. I wasn't PCV. Just a tropical tramp but I met a lot of PCV's along the coast. " Beware of the evil bight of Benin, Where few come out Though many go in " Rudyard

 

[Stantheman86]

My solid opinion, if you're gonna live fire it a lot, go with a Pedersoli or Chiappa at a minimum. Lodgewood has a Euroarms JP Murray for sale right now for $400. I'd have snapped it up if I didn't have two Parker Hale Musketoons. You can find deals on Italian stuff.

If you go with a reputable seller , the Indian stuff can be good too. Just for my purposes, a smoothbore is a smoothbore, you can do ball, or shot, or Nessler balls, have lots of fun with it but nothing from the Indian shops is rifled. So you're getting a musket/ shotgun either way. If you're diligent you can turn up reenactor used Chiappa 1842's, or smoothbore P53's for less than Indian stuff.

Chiappa makes a smoothbore Zouave , you can get them for $750. Vs $500 for an Indian P53 which is the lowest priced option.

 

[FlinterNick]

My solid opinion, if you're gonna live fire it a lot, go with a Pedersoli or Chiappa at a minimum. Lodgewood has a Euroarms JP Murray for sale right now for $400. I'd have snapped it up if I didn't have two Parker Hale Musketoons. You can find deals on Italian stuff.

If you go with a reputable seller , the Indian stuff can be good too. Just for my purposes, a smoothbore is a smoothbore, you can do ball, or shot, or Nessler balls, have lots of fun with it but nothing from the Indian shops is rifled. So you're getting a musket/ shotgun either way. If you're diligent you can turn up reenactor used Chiappa 1842's, or smoothbore P53's for less than Indian stuff.

Chiappa makes a smoothbore Zouave , you can get them for $750. Vs $500 for an Indian P53 which is the lowest priced option.

One factor that I would always consider is repairs and replacement parts.

Many of the Indian Gun makers and suppliers are either totally inept regarding spare parts and repairs or will charge you almost as much as the gun is worth to repair and replace a part (especially a working part like a spring) because they often have to have the spring casted and then fitted.

Pedersoli guns, Track fo the Wolf Guns, Uberti, Armi Sport, all of these manufactures have readily made parts to ship out. Many of the Italian makers will even replace a part in warranty for minimal costs.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well, I don't think Indian muzzle loaders are proved...not way they can be without a touch hole. And I'm not totally sure they're not cottage-industry guns. I've heard good (a few) and bad (more) reviews on them. Italian guns are at least proved.

Well we have at least two, and possibly three members on this forum who have had their Loyalist Arms guns proofed by English or German proofing houses, and those houses have much higher pressure standards that does the Italian proofing house where Pedersoli has their barrels done, and also higher than the Spanish proofing house where some of the factory half-stocked rifles are proofed.
There have been more documented failures by a single model of CVA brand rifles with proofed barrels than with the India made muskets. In fact CVA changed proofing houses because of the problem.

LD

 

[Grumpa]

" Beware of the evil bight of Benin, Where few come out Though many go in " Rudyard

A bay on the western coast of Africa - the Slavery Coast. The old rhyme refers to the perils of slavery, malaria and Blackwater fever.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Rudyard]

I'll second that Grumpa . I only got the malaria . I had to wait till I got to Nepaul to get the blackwater fever, Then I acquired Tick bite fever in Zululand so got to make up the set . Well one has to gather a few souveneers in ones travels .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Grumpa]

Ah, Rudyard, but you "had the experience, and you can't buy that!"

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Rudyard]

I doubt any Indian muskets had cast springs nor any other than rudamentery jigs to produce the internals . We are talking hand work. Not machine made. Interchangability cant be expected. Its the wrong mind set you have to expect spare part catalogue number xyz . If you read the NMLRA booklets about historic gun making at Williamsburg ect see the templates, dies, tumbler mills ect then you get the idea of how they where made .I have sat & watched the workmen smithing out the parts in charcoal fuelled hearths made with crushed bricks and an old buiscit tin for a hearth not even a bench just squatting by a rude anvil and a' Buffalo ' blower all hand & eye stuff , raw skill despite the poor kit and my interjecting with ' ' Polis ' ' &" Same to same Original "as they copied the original locks I took out for them to copy. Flint locks in various style and sizes even did me Wheellocks .Bit of a' Bridge too far'. But I had emagination & the workmen certainly had the skills . But its the middle men who exploited lock & gun makers who had no English much beyond pidgin .All they saw was Rupees. A line of Kipling sort of sums it up .

"Now it is not good for the Christians health ,To hustle the Arian brown , For the Christian Riles & the Arian smiles & he weareth the Christian down."
" And the end of the fight is a tombstone white. And the name of the late deseased. And the epitath drear "A fool lies here who tried to hustle the East ". It allways strook me as fitting.
PS Thank you Richard That certainly is very true It was an experience no money could buy Regards Rudyard

 

[Sun City]

Which ones have you owned and could you detail the problems?

I was smart enough to not buy one based upon long term evidence!

 

[Columbus]

I was smart enough to not buy one based upon long term evidence!

Then your comments are completely irrelevant.

 

[Alej]

I owned one, and his comments are surgically correct.